With new three voice Castagnaris going for more than 3K, I am beginning to think that Cajun boxes (at least the ones made by the "better" builders) are underpriced, Even $2450 for a fancy wood "Acadian" may be 30% to 40% low.

A quality used box selling for $1500 should be no surprise. It wasn't long ago that you could order a box for $800. I suspect they were being given away at that price, considering it takes about 100 hours to make one. Say a builder expects to get 10 to 12 dollars an hour for their time (cheap in my opinion)...then you'll HAVE to charge at least 2k, taking into account cost of materials, tools, shop, phone charges, etc.

With the fall of the dollar, europeans should be snatching up anything that comes up for sale here in the US. The post office is flooded with Canadians buying US goods. If it continues, the market may drive the cost of a hand-made LA box up to $3500 pretty soon.

John,

Castagnari is quite expensive. There are other brands which are as good and cheaper. Nevertheless I think that the top two or three voice double rows (French, Italian and custom made)cannot be compared with the cajun accordions. Their quality might exceed the boxes we play. It is a different construction, mostly with fine switch mechanism, so you can change the voices hundreds of times without being afraid of damaging the accordion (unlike our mother of pearl inlay 'stops'). Also the Quebec accordions are not to be compared with the cajun accordions.
So a price comparison is rather difficult to make.

I hope the price of cajun accordions will not increase too much, since I sincerely hope that everyone who wants to play cajun seriously has the chance to buy a real cajun accordion for a fair price. And that is also the reason that I hope that there will be a circuit of reliable buyers and sellers apart from ebay which makes used accordions too expensive in my opinion.

Gus

Yeah, I'm at the point where I'd consider changing a box's key before buying a brand new one.

You can buy a mighty fine acoustic guitar in the $3000 range.

The as it seems almost free downfall of the US dollar makes parts from Italy quite a bit more expensive. I have bought a Louisiana built accordion recently, and wonder how it could be made for the price I payed when only bellows and reeds are almost around 350,- euro. I think prices will go up more as the dollar will still drop further, as long as one mr. B and his naughty bizzy friends are allowed to keep up what they're doing. Spending money they don't really have. We are made to think that they do it for right and just reasons, but it's really about that black syrup from way below and the personal profits they put in their own pockets. One mr C. turned out to be at least 10 to 20 times richer since he left the scene a while back they say ...... Stolen from us since we have to pay the raising price after all, in things like accordions, toothpaste, health care, mortgages and all other worldly goods. And I really pity the people who lost their life and health thanks to these b#*&^%$rds. I really hope there is a heaven somewhere, with Louisiana accordions built to play.

Me thinks me just heard a donkey bray.

"Easy! WHOA! Easy boy! WHOA!" - Boozoo Chavis

R!CK

Even though one may be frustrated a little bit with our leaders, present and past, we here in the good ole U S of A still have a great life. Even though I don't participate in this forum too much, I still don't want to get on here and read some political griping. Politicians are always going to be politicians and musicians, at least the ones on this board, need to stay within the bounds of a music discourse, as much as possible. Prices for an instrument will always be as much as the market will bear, and if you want a $ 4K box, you will find a way to come up with the dough. And, if you really need to vent on the Guvernment, my e-mail is up top. Feel free to blast out. I might even gripe along with you, but not here.
JB

Right on JB. Stumps should be cut even with the field here. There's plenty-o-politrickal boards on the web to open the vents on. I understand herman b's frustration when I'm forced to drink really bad beer cuz of the price it now costs to produce and ship really good beer.

The upside to all of this is, while I own really good accordions, I also enjoy the sheet out of playing my cruddy 22 year-old Hohner.... sweet.

Ain't life grand?!

R!CK

Interesting topic and response

Pray tell what accordions are as good as and cheaper than Castagnaris ???

As an owner of a Castanari 1 row and having owned a total of 6 Castagnaris from 1 row to 2 row and 2 1.2 row..The quality is excellent and yes the proces are high.

Having also owned other Italian Accordions, Quebec accordeons and of course Hohners ( lots of Hohners)
Castagnari is difficult to beat.

The bopxes that I consider "better" are also more money, among them Kinkora, Briggs, and Gaillard.

I wish no disrespect the Cajun accordeon builders,
(and it has been alluded to) the qulaity is not on a par with Quebec boxes or Italian accordeons. And that is from personal experience having owned and played and opened up and dissected Cajun made boxes and Quebec and Italian.

Specific differences would be
Design.....of the casework, reed blocks, pallet mechanisms, bass innards...
Workmanship.. you must see a Quebec or Italian accordeon such as the Castagnari to appreciate the difference......flawless workmanship on the Castagnaris, **** good on other Italian makes..
you must see it to understand..

Simple things such as... when I see the band strips of inlay installed on a Cajun made box ( most but certainly not all) I have not had the expereice of seeing the pattern pefectly line up left and right sides... petty maybe, but it is a distinction...
Pallets... not evenly spaced and don't line up parallel with one another... again petty to some
frayed slivers left around the face plate holes (4x10).. holes drilled out of line...
just exapmles and may be picking the fly specs out of the pepper but these are just some of the details where the Quebec and Italian standards are higher.
Reed work is also at another standard...too detailed to explain.

I like the "colloquialism" of Cajun boxes and would buy a Cajun made box for that reason; and very specifically for Cajun music.

My Castagnari is now around $2300 new...but keep in mind that is weak dollar against a strong Euro.
I originally bought this box in 2002 for $975. And that is when a Cajun box was also $900-1100.
Again, I do not want to disparage the Cajun made boxes.. but the Castagnari for workmanship is a better "value".. at least for me and my intended use..

Also keep in mind Savoy's boxes improved after his encounter with the very fine Quebec player Bruneau..
he saw first hand what Quebecers expect out of a box.

I disaggree that Cajun made accordions are underpriced. Many I consider to be overpriced, some about where they should be. When the quality reaches that of the Quebec boxes and the Italian makes ( the better ones) then perhaps. But in my personal opinion the prices have peaked with me and to a point of the price is a deterrent to purchase.

I do not begrudge the Cajun makers their need or desire to make money on these.. but I would suggest a first hand inspeection of a Clement Breton(which I had custom made) a Melodie, a Messervier, a Castagnari
or a Gaiilard. There is a vast difference in design , material and workmanship.

$600 gets you a decent acoustic guitar if you are willing to buy a Guild GAD from China or an Epiphone MAsterbilt form China.. or and number of other makes fast getting much better from the Orient.
Our Chinese made accordeon experiences are not so good but getting better.. just watch out...it's coming.

Also you can get a decent American made acoustic guitar for $1500 even from Martin....so $3K ? sure my D18GE cost close to that but.. that's in a different league...

Apples to apples

And Gus thanks for bringing up that there are indeed differences in the qulaity of Cajun built accordeons and those made in Quebec and Italy (some) and I will add France.

A couple years ago I made mention of the quality differences on this very forum and was **** near crucified as a villainous lying traitor...and a Cajun hater...
Facts seem to create controversy.

Any one close to So Oregon is welcome to play and inspect my Castagnari and see for themselves.

Were I to order another Cajun made 1 row...I would call Jude Moreau first.

Y'all be jammin' some two-step on these exotic foreign boxes or just collectin' 'em? Cuz if ya'll jammin', hook us up. Flawless ain't flossin', nuh. Y'all got a website or somethin' where we can check ya playin' these thangs? Myspace, photos, sump'm?? Let's check the flex...

R!CK

The Merchant of Venice - Act V, Scene 1

Jeff, of course Castagnari is still top. In general there is nothing wrong with the instruments. But also price leader, and more expensive in the UK and the US than on the continent. Custom builders are not always more expensive. A 'newcomer' is Borelli brand, French Builder. Some pro's already discovered the brand.
Critics on nowadays Castagnari and Gaillard: the sound has changed, compared with the older ones.


Gus

Borelli is not new...

And they are not made in France

they are made by Mengascini in Italy and rebadged.


While nice.. not in Castagnari's league

No, they are made in the Morvan Region, 10 miles from Saulieu (cajun festival). I checked it before I posted. ( see #1 or adress below)
(about mengascini, they made a few diatonics long ago wich are (nearly)as good as Castagn. My daughter owns one. Her second one will be the Borelli)

BORELLI
Rue du Général Leclerc
21530
Rouvray
03 80 64 82 00

Gus

Believe what you like..

they have been around for at least 10 years..

ALL the Borellis I have seen and played were made by Mengascini...

The fact that Borellis are rebadged is no secret.

Gaston Nolet of Quebec has a 3 row 12 bass badged Borelli made Mengascini

James Keane has a 2 row 1/2 step Borelli.. a rebadged Mengascini.. matter of fact it is on his CD cover

you might check the archives of:
rec.music.makers.squeezebox or the yahoo diatonic group of the French yahoo group.. diato
or melodeon.net

Unless times have changed..Borelli is like Saltarelle ..Saltarelle is in Pirey France but that does not make them French.. Borelli with a French adress does not make them French
rebadged Italian accordeons...not unusual
It would be nice if Borelli were French.. but to my knowledge only Maugeine and Emanuelle Pariselle, and Serafina and Gaillard , and Loffet ( though some his boxes are rebadged Italian units) make .. actually make acordeons in France..sorry forgot about Eric Martin and Bruno Priez and there are a couple others .. I'll post them when my brain kicks in

I will do some independent checking with my Euro buds..and see what they say aboput Borelli.. By the way I have spoken with them on the phone..between their chopped English and my rudimentary French we did ok.. nice folks..

9 years ago:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.makers.squeezebox/browse_thread/thread/d64ad3ebdee24cd7/b97815a2e1a57cab?lnk=gst&q=borelli#b97815a2e1a57cab

Mengasdcini no longer makes the Borellis

They are now made ( since 2006) by Bompezzo. !

Alain Mignot designs them... Italians make them.

Not that this link is directly to a message posted by Loffet and accordion maker in France that also imports and rebadges Italian boxes..

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/diatonic/message/5426


I do apologize to Gus for being wong.. my mistake.

A very recent post on the French diato site...

It seems Bompezzo is very busy also making Stelvio and Parigi

Note
Bompezzo's do nat have thaty good a reputation under their own brand name

Large clumsy slow and not very attractive with a muted tone

However, for those of you who read French

http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/diato/message/7304

Very nice of you, Jeff,

Loffet is nown to be an "assembler" of accordions.

What I know about this Borelli from the Morvan region, is that the brand (but they have different types, of course)is recognised by very critical players (who already own a Castagnari) as "being one of the better brands". Some pro's think that Olaf Bergflot from Norway is the top ( probably also in price)of the European Luthiers (builders). He selects his Binci reeds at Binci himself (they are old friends).

Gus

I believe Alain Chatry also plays a Borelli 2 1/2 row.

Olaf Bergflot. ? I think I have heard that name and have seen one of his accordeons.

Does he paint them rather than using clear finishes ?

I was thinking of another builder who paints his accordeons.

Maybe I am comparing apples and oranges when comparing a Castagnari with, say, an Acadian or Martin. But material costs are going up (as always in the past) and the demand for quality instruments are going up as well. More builders will appear, keeping prices lower, more used instruments will be available for sale which may also keep prices somewhat lower, but if the past is any measure of what to expect in the future, we should expect prices to continue to increase. Hopefully, income will increase as well, keeping the pain of forking out the money to a bearable level. The same thing has happened to my cameras. It would cost me two and three times the money to replace equipment I purchased 10 years ago.

John~! Why worry about the future of harmonikkas and akkordeons when you've got a sweet Dyson box you've just acquired. It's all semantics. Just take the time to sit down with it, and learn all you can with it. If -- and when you do -- it'll be worth more than any other harmonikkakkordeon in the world. It won't matter what anyone else has if you fall in love with what you've got.

Who gives a flying steamer about the price of rice in China. Move forward as a Le Capitaine soldier. It's screaming, "Play ME!" right now!

R!CK

good contri!
same thing crossed my mind.
Problem with us is that we had to wait too long to buy ourselves a good instrument, so that when we see one appear on ebay, we want to buy it. Before we know, we are addicted and turn into collectors.
Of course the blue Acadian is a beauty, and it would be beautiful on the bookshelf, but when I play my brown one, I don't see the color with my ears.

Gus

Well, that is true Gus. Once you get a few tunes under your belt, you wonder about playing them in a different key. Then... the Fevah starts to kick-in. And if you hook-up with a band, the Fevah takes over! Bam! But the cool thing about that is; if you are performing publically, you begin to want to refine AND define what your own personal sound (and box preference) is. Kinda like "branding" in the advertising world.

I can dig the foreign exotic akkordeons, but not for that single-row "Cajun" sound. Granted, I think I'm talking out of the side of my neck since I've never had the opportunity to pull a tune on one, but I would guess there's many-a-Brave here that hasn't taken one for a test drive, either. But that's an assumption -- or at least an observation of mine for the past couple of years on this board.

I guess it's a geographical thang -- folks here in the south can obtain a Cajun box (handmade or otherwise) easier than cats up in Canada, Japan or Europe. You travel to Acadiana and you won't find an akkordeon -- you'll find a chank. I guess in a perfect world, we'd all have access to all combinations, keys, and builders both domestic and foreign. So fortunately -- or unfortunately -- we've all got eBay as the best possible storefront. We've also got this here lil' deeescussion board to poke at each other and have some stimulatin' fun!

It's all about the love of boxes!

Conversely, those I-talian multi-rows are optimum for that smooth zydeco sound -- Gabs and Baffettis are the preferred tool to create [that] half of the dance-genre. But the other half? 4-stop Cajun box. No substitute fi dat!

Bon contri!

R!CK

Of course, I love Danny's box, as I have said so in the past. My playing is improving so fast it is scary. If a Castagnari plays better, then I am speechless. I look forward to trying one some day. I have also heard good things about Saltarelle and others(people argue about their relative merits). I have also had a chance to play a couple of Hyde boxes, custom made in Australia, and they are very very nice, but feel and sound very different from my Le Capitaine.

I find the comments on this thread very interesting indeed, but I would rather be sitting in my back yard playing my sweet box.

J

I guess it boils down to: "whatever boils ya crawfish." If you wanna play Cajun music on a flute, and that makes your soul float, so be it. To each their own.

BUT...

If someone has some recordings of Cajun flute music, I wanna hear that! Prove to me that it sounds right -- or at least let me hear your soul singin' in it. Otherwise, let's roll the cooler out on the porch and jam on what we know to be characteristic.

Everywhere is walking distance if yuh got da time...

R!CK

Find a Castagnari and play it

Hyde is another world.. His "schtick" was to build concertinas yes concertinas in Australia using native timbres.. this was a grant form the government.. He made melodeons instead and in his words,.. the granting board would not know the difference

I tried to order a Hyde.. but he was so hung up an the cosmetics and not the mechanics I passed. He makes his reed blocks form foam and balsa wood

They are delicate.. and I don;t care for the sound.. some folks love em amnd buy more of them

One thing I have been told is that they can take no serious exerted pressure.

I personally find them... OK I'll be PC and polite

U G L Y

His 1 rows are "provincial"

I think they are vastly overpriced. Ten buttons, a bunch of aluminum and steel reeds and a poly finish does not add up to two large, let alone the prices you are offering. :- )

You can get a great Martin guitar for those prices, and the amount of work in a good acoustic compared to a wooden box of metal stuff and plywood is vastly different.

The original Sterling and Monarchs -- still the best sounding "Cajun" accordions ever made, were cheap German-made affairs. Only Marc's accordions approach that sound, most Binci-reed Lafayette LA. boxes sound like goosefarts on a muggy night, including everyone I ever owned, except the Savoys.

I think someone -- say Saga Musical Instruments -- should get a factory up to speed in the East. About 800 bucks ought to do it for a good quality alternative box, tops. People who want a curley maple fancy affair can buy from Louisiana, but for poor folks, such as the farmers of the prarie circa 1927, and school teachers in Tokyo, a cheaper alternative in flat black should be available. I'd rather have a wisdom tooth removed without novocain, than pay more than 1500 bucks for ANY accordion from LA.

And if you have never played an Eastman 915 archtop, or a Kentucky KM1000 mandolin, then you don't know how good Chinese luthiers can be. YMMV, and no problem...

****, I hate to agree with Quinn.. but
I think he is right. Though I have not completed a 10 button accordeon I have built all the parts many time s over.. each time improving techniques and attempting to improve the design..not for a "Cajun" accordeon ( can't build one anyway, I am not Cajun) but for a fast light easy to hald and play affordable unit.

I have also been building stringed instruments for 40 years, The tools and parts and skills required are in a different ballpark

Cajun accordeons have IMNSHO opinion been hiding behind the veil of misinformation and mystique and currenlty Italian Parts pricing. I think the bubble is going to burst. I believe that the price/value wall has been hit.

When these accordeons approach the price of an Italian made or Quebec unit.. time to re evaluate.

Competition is coming. Quinn refers to the very fine and modestly priced Eastmans form China

accordeons are next. Believe it.. The Chinese Hohners are already on par with the last of the German made units and the level is rising..

A decent Martin Guitar can be had for $2k easily
(Ciderville....)

Accordeons were originally made to be cheap and loud..
and sir what color would you like your black Model T ?
same idea...
Now we have fancy wood and "inlays" and some amount of hype.. or sizzle
So we follow along and buy the sizzle not the steak..
Surlpirsed there aren't multiple cupholders and GPS on boxes : )

Tom may be right that a simple black box will land
with the "goods" and it may come form left field.

I am still a fan of the Cajun accordeons and of Cajun music.. and were I to get another Cajun made accordeon I would know where I'd go...
But if someone else comes along with the steak and no fries for $1200 I would think twice.

SAGA or Music Link may just be the ones to do it...

SAGA gave us the DAWG mandolins and the GOLDSTAR banjo

Music LINK the JOHNSON line of Resonators..

I would politley suggest that pricing yourself into a corner and creating competition may not be such a good Idea .

I've played a Castagnari C-Max accordion recently, and as owner of a decent Acadian, a recent Martin and a newer Bon Cajun, probably Jay Miller's, i wouldn't think of buying a Castagnari C max at the price they're asking in Italy. My Acadian is piercing and cutting and drives like a european small sports car; my Martin, built with heavy woods, is by far the loudest thickest sounding and drives more a v8 Lincoln town car from the 80-ies; when you take a turn, slow down a bit or she'll spin around. Had some mechanical small problems with it too. My Bon Cajun sounds sweet & gentle, and delivers the goods rather quite well ........ I love it too. No Castagnari C-max for me, slower button action, weirdly placed air button. But I agree that it's an instrument of quality. And I'd love to see & play a Jude Moreau some time.

castagnari max (the one I owned),
superb reeds (for irish),
air button -when used to it- on the right place,
fast action. heavy duty metal stop construction.

But for cajun I prefer the heavier cajuns (stability), right hand buttons slightly closer to each other, ergonomomic bass box, the possibility to make the 'tone' (also because of the binci reeds, which have other features than the perfect Antonelli's)

Gus

Gus

Not all Cajun boxes have Bincis...
I have seen Artigiana, Salpa, Antonelli, Binci ( and not always #1) and even Hohner reeds

Have you heard about a #3 Czech reed? Yeah, I'm being serious here. Some zydeco players have requested Jr. Martin to install 'em. Just wondering what maker that might be and I'm assuming they are just steel machine reeds.

R!CK

There are 4 qualities of Czech reeds from #1 - #4

No reason not to use them

Many Euro builders do

The main reason is price compared to Italian reeds..

Weltmeister uses them and so has Hohner...

Makes sense. You probably don't dive deep into zydeco, but there's a few players that have a signature sound and I don't think they are pullin' Italian reeds. Step Rideau, in particular, has a single-row tuning that I can pick out if he were behind [the] curtain. Sure, he's got his own style, but it's that Martin [accordion] with something different applied to it. And I don't think it's just some tweaking on the equalizer and preamp. I'm thinkin' he's got some freaky cheap reeds or a mix of reeds. He's got the coolest sound out of all the zydeco cats.

What if someone were to mix reeds? A row of Hohners, a row of Czech reeds, a row of Binci's, and a row of... oh I dunno... Rick Reids?

Is that possible? Would it -- or could it -- sound wicked? Or would it sound like goosefart?

Ever hear of a custom hybrid reed melange?

R!CK

Yes... but

I know players ( myself included) that think that the Hohner bass reeds are the best ever... that is those of us who actually play the basses.. and here I am also speaking of 2 and 3 rows...

I really like zydeco as much or more than other styles.. I just don't play it

Rosie Ledet.. ??? 2 row and 1 row...As well as Piano accordeon players and chromatics and three rows

Beau Jacques and Boo Zoo were also on my list but they may be fringe

I'll give a listen if you can make some recommendations..

Step Rideau I'll check it out

I agree that there is a racous ( rcockus) in your face sound from some of the boxes that is tough to describe really raw like Tex Mex Asordinado or
Tex Mex Jazz tuning....like maybe Steve Jordan ( el parche)

The problem with mixing reeds is that different brands and qualities "speak" at different sppeds...

my ear likes a rawer # 2 or Durall sound but I also like top quality handmades in brass frames for a mellow sweet sonorous tone

Depends on the music...

Used to get Gary Haymans (sp) newsletter I miss it...

S. Nooty

Dude you rock, El Boss! That's some of the best conclusive info I've gleaned thus far about reeds. So... a Durall reed? That sounds like the ticket, perhaps. I'm not opposed to a non-Benci concept as long as it creates a cool sound, stays in tune, and compliments the key.

For the past 2 weeks, I've been playing and writing tunes exclusively on my A and G box(es). Falcon dual-key... yeah, I know... don't taze me, bro! I love it, regardless. (:P) When I bought it, it was the first and only G Randy had ever made and the only yellow box AND the only box with black hardware and valves. He hated it! Ha! But then again, he wasn't a fan of zydeco. Something tells me he's warmed up to that idea now that Travis is the $hit! Ha! I tried to tell Randy back in the 90's that whiteboy nouveau zydeco was a possibility -- even inside the State Of Louisiana.

This box I'm talking about is in G/A, and for all the trouble Randy went through to make it, it is very much a one-of-a-kind box. The G is dry-tuned and the A is wet. I like them both but I really miss that extra bank of mids -- ESPECIALLY on the G. Nevertheless, it sounds good to me, but it doesn't really "stand out" as anything different (sound-wise), other than the fact that Randy swore he'd never make another G, not to mention a G/A dual-key. I love the A key... a lot. I've wondered about what an Ab would sound like -- and if I were to get another 4-stop, I'd consider an Ab to split the difference. But then again, I'd consider an A, too, and then just change out the A reeds on the Falcon to Ab. Either way, it's a ''ponderation'... I just don't have the funds to make that move at the moment. My band has been ridin' my back to get a decent 3-row. If I do that... well crap, I probably would spend most of my time bustin' my chops on that and the 4-stop would ride backseat. And YES, I'd consider a box made by another builder, but a Latex builder! :)) Jude has been on my radar for a long time... and now Rusty is-a beepin' with his Falconistic Follow-sophy!

That's the way life rolls. So many akkordeons, so lil' beer money. Thanks for the droppin' the foreign akkordeon kah-nowledge, El Jefe!

R!CK

That sounds like gumbo

Tom ~ I guess nothing on CD is too exciting with all those late model boxes? Vinyl is still king, eh? Leisure suits too sophisticated for ya?

Just messin' with ya, bro! I know you've been in Tokyo for quite some time, so let me axe you this....

Let's say I'm a cat that wants to build accordions** for $800 a pop. How many do I need to sell during a year to make it worth my while? Likewise, at $800 per akkordeon, how many do I need to make per month to make it worth my while? Is this going to be a hobby or full-time position? How many meals and soccer games am I going to miss out on by dedicating my life to being the cat that builds the cheapest handmades???

With all these questions, I'm already fidnuh tell folks to go to Houston and buy themselves a GabKingAkkordeon because I don't have the time to put into this, because it's not worth it for me to put in the time to build akkordeons for $800 and call them better than a Hohner... or a GabKing. Beyond that, who is my target audience?? Professional musicians or just guys that hock my wares on eBay???

**DISCLAIMER: I am not an akkordeon builder but I do play one on: pub21.bravenet.com/forum

R!CK

I've owned a Gabb "Cajun King" and I now own a Dyson "Le Capitaine". I sat down and played one then the other...I sold the Gabb King. There are problems comparing Castagnari's with La boxes?...there are equal problems comparing my Le Cap with a King. There is a point where price really doesn't matter. Enough said.

I agree you can get a great Martin for the price, but I also think it's an apples/oranges comparison. I live sort of close to the Martin factory and have taken the tour. I think it would bust a lot of bubbles. Not knocking Martin at all, but it IS a factory, and a production line. Yes, quality is high as is the workmanship, but volume is high, and there aren't any jolly old guys in hob nob boots with chisel and mallet. If the demand for single rows was as high as guitars in general, never mind just Martins, I'm sure would prices be far lower, due to shear volume. If you compare it with one of the handmade boutique guitars, you'd be using that two grand as a down payment.
By the way, if you're a Martin fan, it would drive you crazy looking at the wall of unclaimed Martins that came in for repairs. They told me there's nothing they can do with them other than store them.
Steve

I bought my first Martin guitar in 1961. It was a 1939 00-17 in mint condition.. stolen in 1966.
I have owned a dozen since then.

I see a parallel with Martin guitars and some accordeon brands. Resting on their once proud heritage and superb quality.. and now no member of the Martin family touches these guitars as they are made. ( Though CFM IV is the CEO there is a President of Martin corp form outside tha family. Is it coincidental he is formerly their banks President)
Now Martin says there is approxiamately 7 hours of hands on manpower per unit. Thuis is an average for cheapies as well as the good stuff..9Above the Standard grade)

Old ones are prized not just because they are old but because they were built differently, some say better. I completely agree.. My last 3 out of 5 new Martins
SPD16, D18S, D18-GE all exhibited major problems from 3 days after purchase to 3 weeks.. 2 requiring return to the factory,
That and CFM IV's philosophy of business, arrogance and pompousity and well as IMNSHO a lck of honorability, takes Martin off my shopping list. I would own a pre 1984 Martin if the right one comes along. Meantime I am happy with my 1959 Guild M-20 and my 1977 Hardtail Strat.

Back to accordions

In Italy the accordeon makers are largely factories. And as much as we would like to think that Castagnari, a family owned business since 1914, only employess Elves from the Alps.. not true.. they are also pridcutiion but lots of handwork as well. And quite frankly their fit and finish and designs are a bit more sophisticated than Cajun made accordeons.

They make their accodeons in batches. So if you order a Melodeon (max to some) from Castagnari and they just finished a batch, you will wait up to a year to get one. Same goes for the Mory, the Tommy, the Benny and all the rest of the models. Makes sense. If they were just making Meolodon 4 stoppers it would be a different story.

They are like Stradivarius... loads of experience, long long time building, very exacting, work to their own design, and fast very very fast. Stard wasn;t known just because a few of his jewells got out their, he was full blown prduction, with assistants.
Nothing wrong with that...

Handmade boutique guitars come in all price ranges. Collings for example. It is now said if you wnat a Martin like Martin used to build, get a Collings. And yes they are expensive. But worth it. Moreso than a Martin costing the same IMNSHO.

There is a simple fact here that has been pointed out.. you want $2200 for a box with butted joints.. you are joking. Not that I am touting the merits of butts or Mitres ,butt for $2200 better be mitred.. that is the lowest level of skill acceptable ..
and that tells me ( as I have said before) a lot about the maker.
S0me Quebec and Italian accordeons
for $2200 not only do you get a more sophisticated stop mechanism and slide arrangement ... but also metal stops with perloid inlaid stops..and a much more complex and airtight design for the seal of the belows to the frame. And marquetry that is lined up left side to right.. ***** yes but for $2200 I expect it.

Bincis compared to Antonellis...

Again the Pepsi test..
10 Accordeons .. some with Bincis, some with Artigiana, Salpas, Cagnonis..

Player behind the curtain.. pick out the Bincis..
I couldn't do it..

Binci also has several levels of Reeds,, anbd what you think are #1's may not be.. I have mentioned this before and I am going to drop it...

Antonelli makles a very fine reed and here also you can get hand mades and tipo a manos and dural and so on
Same with Cagnoni... and they are cheaper by 20 to 30% ( and that's why they are now being promoted by some suppliers and builders..higher profit)
Gabinelli in Texas will sell you Cagnonis.. matter of fact they have been selling to some Cajun builders for some time.. cheaper than other suppliers...

There are all qulities of Cajun boxes just as there are all qualities of Italian accordeons. I got a very bad very expensive Castagnari a few years back.. so bad that after several weeks and several hunderd dolars later it was still bad so I offed it... it does happen

But here is what I see and no disrespect to anyone

If you are not aware of another level of design materials and workmanship you can't be fair in your judgement. Nor can you build something "better" if you have no clue as to other brands and makes and techniques. Nor can you evaluate what you have if you have not seen and played or owned anything else.

Same goes with playing. Savoy met Bruneau. His playing changed. Savoy met Bruneau and his accordeons changed.

If all you ever played was Hohner 114's... and someone handed you a decnt Cjaun built box with Bincis.. they might say
Heavy slow action harsh doesn't sound right

And that guy will go get a Cajun King and have it fitted with Hohner reeds

Tone is subjective...
but objectively there are many points of design, materials and construction that would improve the average Cajun accordeon, and without changing its character.

As far as the Castagnari Melodeon ( max to some) goes
The action si possibly the fastest I have ever played.. takes half the effort of Cajun boxes I have played.. and quiet valve and pallet action

And they are loud.

But don;t ask them to sound "Cajun" Castagnari has no clue how to tune "Cajun" again my opinion..

Cajun boxes have character and a sound all their own.. and that is why I have owned them...
could they be better.. yes.. do they serve a purpose and are they good enough.. I suppose so..
but unfortunatley I have been exposed to other makes..
so good enough just isn't...

And I would gladly pay an extra $20 to NOT have that scrolling embossed on the Accordeon : )

Just my opinions.

Someone suggest that pictures should be posted of playing accordeons.

I have a fine photo of my ( now sold) Clement Breton from Quebec.... but am clueless as to how to post a photo
I would be happy to post a Picture of me and my Castagnari or my GGF's 1880 box or me and my 1950's 2 stopper or a photo of me playing one of Judes boxes in Koa which I custom ordered



Saltarelle.. saw this mentioned.. Saltarelles are not made in France they are made in Italy by Dino Baffetti they are well, loved by many and disliked by others. They historically have had problems..
and the better Irish players use them btu they are equipped with better reeds than standard.

Their one row is an also ran.. Well made by most standards but just another one row in my book

I could overhaul one and improve it... waaaay over priced.

I'd love to check out those exotic boxes, Jeff. Those would be cool -- and educational -- so that we have some points of reference to these brands you are advocating. Soundbytes would be even mo' bettah! ;)

I think we've debated the crot out of this subject. It's created some interesting dialogue -- even if not everyone present has weighed in on it. It's a fun topic and I hope you know that I can be goofier than a wooden wristwatch, and have enjoyed you droppin' ya deep akkordeon knowledge on cats like we.

The only rebuttal I have left [found it in my backpocket] is... [ahem]

Here's my hypothesis on why imported accordions (triple-rows excluded) are not embraced by the majority of professional or semi-pro artists from (or outside) Acadiana...

Music lovers that perform or wish to learn Cajun music want [that] Louisiana/TX handmade box. They want to own a lil' piece-o-Louisiana, brutha. Buying one of these handmades gives one a sense of connection with the roots and history of Louisiana -- not I-Taly.

[BRING IN THE STRING SECTION HERE] And for a kool-aid drinker like myself, that's a feeling I just don't get when I pick up a fuzzy little foreign box. That's the only way I can explain it. It's like a vibe you get -- a piece of legacy and heritage in your hands. It's an immediate deep feeling and full-on connection with the builder; whether it's Jr., Randy, Marc, Larry, Jay, Jude, Ed, Danny, John, Charlie, Dick, whomever.... it's like becoming a part of their legacy. Dig that? [INSERT CYMBAL CRASH HERE]

When you get a LA/TX handmade strapped on, and you're learning your first licks of "Jai Passe Devant Ta Porte", it's like you're playing it on an instrument that was made FOR Cajun music BY Cajuns -- Not made by someone who has never had boudin and Budweiser for breakfast. Not made by someone who imagined a jig being played on it rather than a two-step.

That's the only way I can explain this. [APPLAUSE]

The only way foreign models will get a foothold into the psyche of Cajun music is for cats like Toups, Riley, Abshire, Savoy, Delafose, Naquin and Matte to start using them as their primary axe. That ain't gonna happen. I get the feeling that they, too, share this same vibe about the legacy of the handmade LA/TX box.

In conclusion, any dismissal of the significance of the LA/TX handmade, whether obvious or even slighty tongue-in-cheek, by suggesting there's a possible better option in this world to play Cajun music on is bunk. Sure, you're gonna have your Hohner advocates, but they aren't going to be selling out the Lakeshore Lounge on the weekends. And you'll probably have a parish idol go into the studio with an old Monarch to record a tune so they sound like some scratchy 78 track, but they won't be makin' 'em jump wid it on the bandstand. Gimme heritage or gimme death! (ha! like dat Rusty?!) Then again, if all I was doin' was buyin' them and stickin' 'em inna showcase, and not performing and recording with 'em... well, that's a whole nudder rant. That's all...

Thanks for reading...

R!CK

"Jai Passe Devant Ta Porte" ... probably my favorite Cajun song...the tune as well as the punch line in the lyrics. Beautiful in every way. Danny's box plays it perfectly (I'm not sure I have anything to do with it...it kind of plays itself).

Stradivarius did not play the violin.
But he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I have own 2 custom made "Cajun" accordions. and they are well suited to the music.
And yes there is a "vibe" that comes form having the sound and the look and the playbility of a "handmade" Cajun accordion.

But, I will garontee that lots and lots of Genuine Cajun music played by Genuine Cajuns has been played on German made instruments, whether Hohner or Monarch or Sterling or Bruno or any number of others.

It's the player not the box that makles the music.

There is no dismissing Cajun boxes in any of my posts, not out right or "tongue in cheek".

I have owned 2 and played many mnay more.

The best I ever played was an old Point Noir and a late 70's early 80's Savoy .

I have also played a Mouton, a Charlie Ortega,
Miller, Martin (w/crawdad) and a few others.

All have their own character.

I am not advocating Castagnari.. they are poorly suited to Cajun music. They are brilliant for nearly everything else.

The Air button is ridiculous though I have gotten used to it.

There are boxes out there with "intelligent design"
They are rare as hens teeth. Gaiilard as an example.
Big dough long long long time to get. He was a furniture maker long before he was an accordeon builder.. and he farms out all the reed work.
He was one of the 3 principals that originally started the idea of Saltarelle.. along with Mairtin O'Connor( Irish 2 row player ) and Geores Roux..
Gillard went on his own, Mairtin is the Saltarelle dist/dealer in Ireland and ROux is the man at Saltarelle.

The only reason that Italian or other 1 row accodeons are not played by more "professional and semi-professional" players is the same reason they are not played by more amateurs. AVAILABILITY.

Keep in mind Savoy went to Italy to have Acadians built quite a few years ago.. and now these are sought after.

People who pay to see Steve Riley or and of the other big name players aren;t buying tickets because they oplay a partuicular brand of accordeon.

If Steve got up and played a Hohner he'd get it to talk.

And let's not forget Jimmy Breaux playing a Hohner 3 row.. I didn;t see anybody get up and walk when he picked up the Hohner

I am not advocating Hohner either. They have their place. Much like VW's of old. Cheap and fun, easy to fix.

Rebuttle to what... rebuttle to the fact that there are accordeons with a differnt level of design materials and workamnship that is a plain and simple fact

Subjective selection.. I understand that and I am open minded..
Show me a Cajun made accordeon that isn't 90% like the next one..
Falcon seems to have made some advances, Savoy certainly has right down to hsi own tuning..
Oh let's not forget progreesive tuning which is what Itialians and French have been doing for decades...

And Cajun tuning is generally a dry "just" tuning
by the numbers... nothing wrong with that... Hohner Marine Bands have been that way since forever...
it favors chords... and gives a distinct sound

Again all part of the charm of Cajun accordeon sound.

Interesting that in one of Savoy's early videos he was teaching on a Hohner 114B.. and he sounded..
Cajun.

Denis Pepin,, extraordinary player from Quebec, plays a very old Savoy box among others...
even showed a bit of it on his video (out of print)
but when he came to teaching the tunes.. he played a Hohner 113 3 stopper with a retrofitted growl box.. guess what he sounded Quebec...

It's the player.

Granted I understand the "connection" with heritage.. and one of the very reasons I enjoy playing my Great Grandfathers 1880's ( perhaps as early as 1860 according to the Austrian Accordeon Museum folks) 2 1/2 row.

I agree it's a fun topic and I'll keep an open mind
to all this...

I think we all agree that the Cajun culture, music and accordeons have made their place in American history...oh and the food ! : )

I have an accordion made by Charley Ortego, 1984. Any idea of the value or where I could search for value?

"As far as the Castagnari Melodeon ( max to some) goes
The action si possibly the fastest I have ever played.. takes half the effort of Cajun boxes I have played.. and quiet valve and pallet action"


I couldn't resist...I can't possibly believe that a Castagnari takes HALF as much effort to play as my Le Capitaine. Maybe I have a special box (I like to think so). I have also owned a Hohner 114 and I would say the keys on my Le Capitaine are every bit as easy and fast plus the action and the reed response is sooooo much better. I won't even discuss the tone. Yeah, they do sound different and the Le Capitaine is somewhat heavier than the 114, heavier than a Castagnari as well. Personally, I like the weight. I would say a Gabb Cajun King is half the speed of my Le Capitaine. Maybe that's what you are thinking of.

I would agree most Cajun boxes could benefit from quieter valve and pallet action, but there are people who would disagree with me on that point.

I play on two Castagnari's 10 button(Max) and I like them both. The air button is on another place than on a real cajun accordion, but Wilson Savoy said this summer in France that a wierd place should be on the front side of the accordion. He also said it's a good accordion. In my opinion they play light, the action is good, the sound is loud and clear.
When I play on a LA-box it's always difficult for me to get things the same as on my Italian boxes.
I have some trouble with the air-button, but the one I play one have really another sound and also play very fine.
I hope to get a LA-box soon and then I can really feeland hear the difference between the boxes.
I hope to manage also the breathing-button.

I am much the same, but reversed, I really can't comment on Castagnaris as I have never played one. We all have out personal viewpoint based on experience (or lack of).

Ron

I will assume you have a Castagnari in C and D

I not also on your web site that your violinist play may be playing an unusual Chanot ( and Lete)
very very rare and very cool !

The LA boxes are usually 19 mm between button centers and the Castagnari is 20mm... not uch of a difference but a difference

Also the LA box action is different.. a lot more mass moving

And the Castagnari is much smaller and lighter.


Your band has a good sound......

Do you know Van der Leeuw ??
or Van der AA whoo recently moved to Colombia
And of course the other accordion maker that makes those great large accordions with "spoon" basses.. Martinelli ????

I did a workshop with Karel van der Leeuw and I talked once with Frans van der Aa. I never talk with Noud Martinali. They all built fine instruments, but more for other music than Cajun.
Karel has built a few very special chromatic accordions for musicians in Holland.

After you have played a Castagnari.. I'll give some credence to your comments

What? I did not know that such a wall existed! I am on my way to Nazareth, tomorrow.

I'm a little confussedeted when referring about Martins. I think Steve was referring to Martin Guitars rather than Martin Accordions. I'd love to see a wall of unclaimed Martin Accordions!

"You! Yes, you behind the bikesheds, stand still laddy!" - The Wall ~ Pink Floyd

R!CK

Yes, Martin guitars. Lots and lots of them. Old ones, new ones, the blue case ones that might as well had Steal Me written on it, regardless of the two piece or three piece back arguements. Was told that legally, they couldn't sell them or do anything else except store them. But down the way at the Marin custom shop, they had the 'blemished' guitars available. Strangely enough, my strongest memory i left with, was the poor lady who put the fuzzy stuff on the ends of bass strings, eight hours a day, five days a week. Willy Wonka it ain't.
Steve

I was referring to guitars, as well. Martin accordions, though they are great, don't excite me as much as Martin guitars. I am pleased as punch with my two Bon Temps.