Can anybody say to me why the sounds of accordions " cajun " and " zydeco " are different?
Excuse my english.

Cajuns use acadian, Zydeco's use Martin or Falcon , No joking. Depends on the tuning: dry versus wet tuned

Gus

dry vs wet is a myth

both cajuns and zydeco guys use both dry and wet

i would say there is really nothing
about the accordions themselves that makes
a difference

though

a. cajuns never use 3 row boxes [almost never]
zydeco guys use them quite a bit

b. cajuns usually have mics on the inside of the accordion
zydeco guys usually have it on the inside

this makes a big difference

but possibly only for live work

in the studio, zydeco is just as likely
to use the internal mic for recording
as to not use it

if the accordion is recorded from the internal
mic, it will sound way different from
recording with a studio mic, acoustically

there is no preferred brand for either style
they both like good accordions


wle.

Thanks, larry, that's a better answer than I gave

Gus

IMHO the difference comes from the use of the bass buttons and the syncopation. In Cajun tunes, the ideal is to play a constant bass right on the beat, either waltz or two stp and the right hand plays off of that. Even if the bass is not being picked up in a mic it is the base upon which the tune rests. If you are not hitting that bass right on it isn't cajun music. In Zydeco, the bass is very often a melody note or a grace note for more drive and syncopation. It would be unusual to play a cajun type bass in a modern Zydeco song. Just my take on it. But it is all good, isn't it!

I think Larry has a point because alot of the old recordings may have been on the wet side. Most of the old accordions- Hohners, Beavers, Eagles, Globes, etc. were probably wet tuned coming from Germany, but the Cajuns ended up tuning them "Cajun Style" later on? I think no matter what the tuning style, the Cajun style of playing is what makes the sound.

Here we go again

Cajun tuning.. my understanding

The norm is Dry and just
lately some wet but still just

Germans ( and other europeans) used just tuning going way way way back

12 tone equal tmepered tuning is used by many genres including Irish, Quebec, Italian and so on and can be wet or dy

But "Cajun" tuning is "just" tuning dry or wet

When I hear Zydeco I hear TET not just but nthen agian some are using "just" on 1 rows.. I have never heard "just" on a Zydeco 2 or 3 row

Just think Marine BAnd
TET think Lee Oskar

Maybe all of the old ones I had owned were "just" out of tune!

"just" tuning sounds out of tune to many accordion players.. and tuners. I have strobe sample readings of most major LA builders, and professional tuners are in "accord" that they sound off-tune or plain out-of-tune according to normal tuning orthodoxy. "just" tuning is an unorthodox tuning, which accounts for the characteristic "edge" or off-tune sound of Cajun playing. Here it is desired, elsewhere it is seen / heard as un-tuned.

I recently spent two days at the Hohner Factory where they had a triple row tuned with one row "just" tuning, one row standard , one row dry.. and it gave a nice illustration of how offset Cajun tuning really is.

I have had numerous boxes here that I have taken to be tuned..and have come back tuned normally..and have lost their Cajun bite. I took them back to tune to the readings I took on the LA boxes.

The LA sound is something no European box has yet incorporated, but suspect "just" tuning will be replicated here soon.

Jeff, correct me on any of this. thanks.

GLENN

You can read all the info relating top tunings

but scroll all the way to the bottom and compare the
"Just" tuning with the "equal temperament tuning"

and you will seee the comparison of the difference in cents

Simply put

Just tuning is a specific tuning of ratrios that will only work within the specific diatonic scale being used

IE if you tune to just in C it only works in C
if you apply those same numbers to A it won't work

Equal tempered tuning tried to get over the fact that
a JUST tuning only works in a specific key by "tempering" or modifying the ratios so that the same formula can be sued for all keys

or a compromise tuning

That is why JUST tuning sounds great on chords but sometimes dis(h)ordant for single note playing

TET sounds ok but compromised on chords but sounds better for single note playing

To give you a parallel with harmonicas

The Marine band is JUST tuned and sounds great on chords and "blue" for blues not really "sweet" for single notres

Then take the Golden Melody which is TET or Tempered tuning and it sounds sucky for chords and brilliant for single note playing

Ala Howard Levy

Many players use both and there are examples of players using GM for Blues just as there are JAzz and single note players using JUST

But try playing those fast single note Irish and Quebec tunes on a "just" tuned box.. strange to my ear

Or play a Qebec or other tempered box for Cajun and it dioesn;t sound right but passable

If I had to pick one tuning for all uses on an accordeon it would be tempered tuniong

Now dry vs wet has absolutely no bearing on this

wet or dry implies 2 reeds played at the same time
one reed is alwyas dry

So you can have "just" tuning and wet or dry
or tempered tuning wet or dry

So listen to a Hohner 114 right out of the box..
play only the 2 clarinet or middle reeds

this is tempered tuning and wet

Take a Cajun or just tuned box and ply only the 2 middle reeds.. if it is a standard Cajun box...
it will be just and dry

When you tune wet or dry

you are adjusting only one bank of these 2 middle reeds
to be the same.. dry or unison
any thing else would be some type of "wet" tuning

As far as the example of the 3 row box at Hohner.. sorry that example makes little sense

One row was just tuned.. ok but was it wet or dry "just"
One row was standard.. I will assume this meant 12TET or tempered tuning and Hohners normal "wet" tuning..

And then the third row dry.. but dry in Tmepered or "just" tuning" ???

However if they were attempting to show differences in tuning

a fouth row.. would be necessary and could be done this way

1 row Just and dry
one row just and Hohners usual wet tuning
one row Tempered tuning dry
one row Tmepered tuning and GHohners usual "wet" tuning

that would make sense....

Wet and dry have lttle to do with tempered or Just

think one reed to think about tempered or just

think 2 reeds to think about dry tuning

I am a total novice about this stuff

but it cmes down to numbers

And yes Europeans have been "just" tuning boxes for over 150 years..

"Just" is one of the oldest tunings...

Interesting reading

On Marc Savoys "Gospel II" DVD in the "tuning the accordion" part he says some interesting things about the dryness of tuning of the middle register, and probably why some tuners are so darn good at it ..... Besides, who knows the name of that sweet walz he & Wilson play, in F on a red F accordion, during the intro of the tunes section? According to Tina it's a traditional ..

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

You can read all the info relating top tunings

but scroll all the way to the bottom and compare the
"Just" tuning with the "equal temperament tuning"

and you will seee the comparison of the difference in cents

Simply put

Just tuning is a specific tuning of ratrios that will only work within the specific diatonic scale being used

IE if you tune to just in C it only works in C
if you apply those same numbers to A it won't work

Equal tempered tuning tried to get over the fact that
a JUST tuning only works in a specific key by "tempering" or modifying the ratios so that the same formula can be sued for all keys

or a compromise tuning

That is why JUST tuning sounds great on chords but sometimes dis(h)ordant for single note playing

TET sounds ok but compromised on chords but sounds better for single note playing

To give you a parallel with harmonicas

The Marine band is JUST tuned and sounds great on chords and "blue" for blues not really "sweet" for single notres

Then take the Golden Melody which is TET or Tempered tuning and it sounds sucky for chords and brilliant for single note playing

Ala Howard Levy

Many players use both and there are examples of players using GM for Blues just as there are JAzz and single note players using JUST

But try playing those fast single note Irish and Quebec tunes on a "just" tuned box.. strange to my ear

Or play a Qebec or other tempered box for Cajun and it dioesn;t sound right but passable

If I had to pick one tuning for all uses on an accordeon it would be tempered tuniong

Now dry vs wet has absolutely no bearing on this

wet or dry implies 2 reeds played at the same time
one reed is alwyas dry

So you can have "just" tuning and wet or dry
or tempered tuning wet or dry

So listen to a Hohner 114 right out of the box..
play only the 2 clarinet or middle reeds

this is tempered tuning and wet

Take a Cajun or just tuned box and ply only the 2 middle reeds.. if it is a standard Cajun box...
it will be just and dry

When you tune wet or dry

you are adjusting only one bank of these 2 middle reeds
to be the same.. dry or unison
any thing else would be some type of "wet" tuning

As far as the example of the 3 row box at Hohner.. sorry that example makes little sense

One row was just tuned.. ok but was it wet or dry "just"
One row was standard.. I will assume this meant 12TET or tempered tuning and Hohners normal "wet" tuning..

And then the third row dry.. but dry in Tmepered or "just" tuning" ???

However if they were attempting to show differences in tuning

a fouth row.. would be necessary and could be done this way

1 row Just and dry
one row just and Hohners usual wet tuning
one row Tempered tuning dry
one row Tmepered tuning and GHohners usual "wet" tuning

that would make sense....

Wet and dry have lttle to do with tempered or Just

think one reed to think about tempered or just

think 2 reeds to think about dry tuning

I am a total novice about this stuff

but it cmes down to numbers

And yes Europeans have been "just" tuning boxes for over 150 years..

"Just" is one of the oldest tunings...

BTW Savoy does not tune to the standard "Cajun" just tuning...he conformed this in a conversation I had with him ( in person ) a year ago...

Jeff, if you dont mind, what does he do different? I'm also not sure I understand the terms you use for tuning (I'm easily confused). I thought the term "dry" meant the reeds of each note were tuned to the same setting.

It is my understanding Savoy cuts down the cents differential from pure just in an effort to sweeten up the individual notes for solo playing

You can here it when he plays solo on one of his own boxes..

It would be interesting if one of us who owns a Savoy in its virgin state to have someone check the tuning...

Using the terms wet or dry... it is generally accepted you are talking about 2 reeds

if you have one reed you can tune it anywhere you want and it is still dry


So talking about 2 reeds.. we'll call them middle or clarinet reeds


take as an example the 3rd button push or C on a c box

tune it to C , whether "just" or some tempered tuning... makes no difference.. just tune it

now thake the other identical middle reed and tune it exactly the same .. that is dry...or unison

now leave one of the reeds the same and tune the other middle reed a bit higher.. a little
3 cents more `10 cents 15 cents... if the second reed is higher in pitch and there is a differential you now have "wet"

3 cents is on the lower end of wet tuning and many folks assert that it would be tough to hear..but some players do..

15 cents would sound like a Hohner and this is fairly "wet"

here we are talking about a tremolo a warble a beat usually the sound we think about when we think about any accordeon other than a Cajun accordeon I mean I am talking Lawrence Welk here.....


So you can tune one set of reeds to "just" or some "tempered" tuning but with one reed it will never be anything but dry...NO tremolo

Taking 2 sets of reeeds such as the 2 middle reeds

you can tune them "Just" or any other "tempered" tuning .. if you tune them the same.. they are dry..
"Just" dry or "tempered" dry ' but dry if they are the same.. also called unison


and then you can decide if you want to sharpen one set to get them to be some degree of "wet"

so just wet or tempered wet.. but any degree of sharpening is wet

This is about the limit of my understanding...

and I also am easily confused

but you casnnot have a single reed box and have it wet tuned.. that much I do know

and this has nothing whatever to do with how Savoy or any other tuner "tempers" their tuning

And BTW when you box builder gets his set of reeds.. they are already roughly tuned to 12 Tone Equal Tempered Tuning and they must file the reeds to get them into "just" tuning

I have owned and played boxes where the builder failed to first tune all the reeds to each other in the tempered tuning and then adjust them to "just" tuning

Believe me this is more common than you know...

Matter of fact take a lowly 114 Hohner ( one of my favorite boxes) and have a skilled tuner adjust the reeds and then retune then to dry and then and only then have them put it to "just " tuning

amazing results

It's like balancing tires..As and old Brit mrechanic and friend once told me as UI was apprenticed to him for a few years.. I can balance a square block of wood with paper clips but I can't make it roll

Ok so unless you get the reeds tuned deadly accurate to TET and then into just it just wont roll

Ok, I understand dry then, it is the "just" and "tempered" that I apparently dont understand. I have a very old 114 C that I retuned with a strobe tuner to be dry. Each of the 4 reeds tuned the same and exactly on the note, except the E's and B's, which were tuned 15 cents flat. So what is this?

Thanks for the explanations.

On my accordions(C) only the B and the E are tuned a bit lower and on my D accordion the same buttons.
Is it a matter of taste that some changing the pitch of the F an bit higher ?
On my accordions(Dry tuned) is it possible to get a kind of a wet sound by pushing a bit inside two of the four stops. (The mid range)
Is that also possible on a LA-made box ?

Did you sharp the F's


It is some sort of "tempered" "just" tuning if that is possible : )

That is very interesting that to some, the just tuning sounds out of tune. It is actually the most in-tune kind of tuning that is possible because it is based on the pure mathematical ratios. Someone with a good ear might be able to hear the slight "beats" that are present with equal temperment, and also notice that the beats are not there with just temperment.

Just temperment is what singers in a barbershop quartet do, although they might not know it. They listen carefully to the blend of their voices and make the minute adjustments to get the highest degree of consonance/harmony possible. I have been told that concert violinists might play this way too, as might a player of any instrument that does not have a fixed scale (with a guitar or keyboard, you can't do these things).

Exactly how or when just tuning came into vogue with Cajun accordions, I don't know. But it makes sense to me that if you are tuning by ear, you listen for the beats and remove them. They probably didn't know anything about just vs. equal, or pythagorean ratios - they just used their ears to create the most consonant blends they could.

-David

explain beats and removing beats when only one tone is involved ?

I do not understand...

It has to be relative to another note. As you say, a single tone cannot create beats.

-David

Hello Glen,
If I may ask, why were they playing around with such a contraption? Is there any chance that they were asking themselves whether they could produce something for the Cajun/zydeco market that would be better than their current offerings?
Claude

That's a good one.

And, I am sure there is a great deal of truth to it as well. My dry tuned Master Bb, gets a LOT of use, and when I finally decided to get it in for a tune up, it had become very wet. I guess it happened gradually and I didn't notice it, but I sure noticed the difference when I got it back!

-David

The Hohner box was only for illustrative purposes.. not to be played as a triple row..only to illustrate different options... three single row options on one triple row accordion. With a 4 row box they'd have had all combinations ( btw it was JUST tuned - dry )

Yes again, they know all about JUST tuning in Hohner and in Stradella, I was referring to perception of the sound which can sound off-color, out-of-tune, if you spend your life doing Tempered tuning on PAs, button Chromatics.. and they question why Cajun music favours this kind of tuning ( sounding somehow flatter ).

Doesn't make cents ??

Still makes no cents... the 3rd row was tuned dry

dry what ? dry Just? dry meantone comma?, dry 12 TET ? dry 1/4 comma, dry pythagorean, ?

I understand it wasn't a box to be played but as presented, still makes no sense...

it was a box to present three different rows of tunings not to be played as triple row. Effective way of hearing tunings on same box.

That's interesting since Charlie Ortega was known for his "wet" tuning.

Are you mixing Charlie Ortego up with Jr. Martin?

Charlie is the one who explained to me what "Cajun Standard" tuning was, which consisted mainly of being relatively dry, with the so-called lightly tempered thirds (AKA just temperment - I don't recall what terms he used exactly). I am sure Charlie would tune any way a customer wanted, but he considered dry tuning to be the standard.

-David

Nope Charlie Ortego was the guy

and "lightly" tempered thirds
what did he/you mean by that on a C box that would be the E's

...made me think of something Ray Abshire said about players in the early days: accordions cost about $5 (which was some real money in the depression), but the only guy who knew how to tune accordions lived in Texas. Every once and a while a guy with a pickup truck would collect a bunch of boxes from Cajun players and take them over to the tuner in Texas.

Needless to say, there was a lot of out-of-tune accordion playing going on back then...

Ray said that the price of a new accordion wasn't so much different than getting your box tuned in Texas, so he'd heard of squeezeboxes going into the burn barrel once the replacement instrument arrived!

I didn't make this up! Ray might have made it up...

"I have been told that concert violinists might play this way too, as might a player of any instrument that does not have a fixed scale (with a guitar or keyboard, you can't do these things)."

What was the "original" Cajun instrument..? It was the fiddle. Right? Could it be that the tuning of the accordion was adjusted to "match" the fiddle? But then again, Irish accordions also play with fiddles and they are tuned differently, but perhaps that is also why the Irish have moved to tuning dry. I suppose we also have to remember that one of the advantages of an accordion is you can still make music if a reed breaks. It was a long trip to Texas to get it fixed. If an accordion goes "out of tune" it can still sound out for the dancers. Of course, you can make a noise with a one string fiddle as well.

I think the main reason Irish accordeon plays went "dry" was to NOT stick out in "sessions" ie blend with the other players

Many still play wet... particularly soloists

An example of a wet ( not horribly wet) tuned Irish accordeon

This is a very desireable and valuable
Grey Paolo Soprani from the late 40's early 50's probably worth between $3k-$4k

three middel reeds no switches

the rows are in the keys of D and D#

Wow, that guy is awesome! I like the dynamic effect of bringing in the bass side half way through the tune.

The accordion is nice too

-David

He is an icon in Irish Trad Music

and one of my absolute favorite players....

He is also opinionated about Irish Trad Music..
I'll see if I can dig up an editorial he wrote

Second link is his page

Check out the whole deal bio inspirations etc

Third link is a talk he gave

Think about the Cajun culture and music when you read this


BTW Tony thinks that the accordeon may be a amisapplied instrument to Irish trad music !

Hey Jeff, You know me.... I can't tell you a name for the tuning that I do, I call it "Cajun" tuning.
As you know, I've had the opportunity to repair/tune accordions made by just about every well known La. builder out there. I have checked the tuning on them all. They're all the same, with one small execption.
Most of Marc's Acadian's do not have the 4th. tempered 15 cents sharp, as most others do. Other than that, the tuning is the same.
Here's what we do as far as tuning.
Keep in mind that all notes have a frequincy . The note "A" to the third octave is 440 htz. Not 440 plus or minus. 440 on the button. Anything other than that would be "out of tune" or, tempered.
We'll use a "C" instrument for my example. We use a strobe tuner with a Vernier adjustment.
"C" = Vernier set at zero (0).
"D" = 0
"E" = - 15 cents
"F" = + 15 cents
"G" = 0
"A" = 0
"B" = -15 cents
We temper the "E", "B" and "F" so that they will blend better. This is a must for playing "Cajun" music.
For dry tuning, all 4 rows are tuned equal. For example: the "E" notes would all be tuned exactly 15 cents flat. If I were to wet tune, one of the clarinet rows would be tuned some degree less than 15 cents flat.

Now, with all this said, are you saying that this type of tuning is refered to as "just tuning" ???
You also mention that other players say that this type tuning sounds "out of tune" to them.
Are you telling us that the notes of their instruments are tuned such that , ALL the noted are tempered to some degree , or, is it because of the tempered notes, that they say our accordions are "out of tune" ???
Jude Moreau

Hwey Jude...

Man is this fun.. particularly since I am largely ignorant and not a tuner

I just know some stuff

Whoever said Cajun boxes sound " out of tune" wasn't me

except that a "Just" or "Cajun " tuned box playing the Quebec or Irish single note style does not sound "right" as those tunings favor chords..
not single notes which is the Quebec and Irish style

No tuning is out of tuned if the tuning is tuned correctly to itself (duh)

I have heard boxes where the 15 cents plus or minus has been cut back to half that.. another interesting sound

Iteresting that you are lowering and raising notes to "temper" them

In fact what you are doing ( IMNSHO) is actually putting the notes back to by the numbers just formula tuning

Tempering is tuning away from this strict by the numbers tuning in an effort to mkae one style of tuning work in all keys. If anything is "out of tune" it is tempered tuning.

Just tuning works best for the very specific diatonic key in which the instrument plays.. letrs call it C


Now if You took a D box ( not a C) and lowered the B's and E's 15 cents and raised the F's 15 cents.. no doubt this accordeon would sound like caca

But in temepered tuning.. 12TET as an example

all the notes in all octaves and all keys are modified alike.. so that this tuning will work in any key... that is tempered tuning....

If you go back to my original post and look at the links and see how "just" tuning is done... stricly by the numbers you will see what it does and why it is done

Just tuning sometimmes called Cajun tuning is centuries old.....

I will attempt in the coming days and weeks to get better educated on this..

However you can buy a modern "strobe" or electronic strobe tuner that has buiklt in several types of tuning.. including 12TET and Just ( they don;t call it Cajun) switch the dial read the numbers and tune away....

Another opinion.. Marc Savoy does not sharp the f's
or 4th........ and beacuse MArc is a cjun and a tuner.. that is in fact a Cajun tuning..

A now departed Italian tuner, Walter Vergi9ni< was born in Castelfidardo Italy and apprenticed to his accordeon building father at age 14... a few years later the father Walter and the rest of the family emigrated to Chicago where they continued their accordeon business for more than 4 decades.
Walter eventually retired and moved to So Calif where he continued to tune and repair accordeons at home.. he was a legend among accordeon shops and players.

When he was apprenticed he made a set of "patrons" or
master reeds that were refernce reeds for tuning.

They were all lined up on his bench. In addition he had a modern strobe tuner. He would adjust the strobe tuner to his patrons. Then he would tune an accordeon by the numbers on the strobe tuner. When that was done he set the strobe tuner aside. Rechecked the reeds against the patrons. Reinstall the reeds and retune. That all done he put everything aside and retuned the box using only his ear. And that man could tune. Absolutley incredible.

when you asked him to tune.. he did not wan to hear I want 15 cents or wet or dry or whatever.. just tell him in your own words the sound you were looking for. He would do it..

And BTW no plastic valves unless you absolutely insisted on them.. An dhe also thought the American GAbs were junk.. and he loved Hohners for their simplicity reliable ease of repair and character.

I have seen him retune a local ( to him) players Cajun accordeons including a Savoy. When he got done.. the sound was magic.

I'll explain why along the lines of something I posted earlier. He also did this with one of my CAstagnaris that was a total POS and very expensive

First he retuned the entire accordeon to the numbers then proceeded with whatever tuning you wnated

When he retuned those Cajun accordeons.. first he would retuned them to standard tuning as a reference
then begin the final "Cajun" tuning per the customers request.

Sadly Walter is gone and I never met another guy like him. Did I mention he could not read or write in Italian or English, though he could sign his name. . Very sweet guy and absolutely dedicated to the accordeon and satisfying his customers... 70 years as an accordeon builder and technician.

Jude, I hope you make it that long : )

see link above

See the link #1 above. I think it does a pretty good job of explaining "just" tuning as a body (reed, string, bell) vibrating at a certain number of vibrations per second (Hz) to create the fundamental note of a scale, and the way another body can vibrate at a multiple of the original vibrations to create a harmonious tone. So every note in the scale has a simple mathematical ratio relative to the fundamental (note which is the name of the scale).

Cajun tuning is an approximation of this: a tuning that is aimed at getting close to those harmonious ratios of vibration speed. It makes great sounding chords for the home key of the instrument.

Equal tempered tuning (like on a piano) averages out the multiplier between successive notes on the scale. Everything is equally out of tune just a little bit, so no particular key is awful but no particular key is wonderful either.

I thought I would try to explain this in a simpler way, and now look what I've done

Like I said...look at Link #1 above.
Steve Blais

"Equal tempered tuning (like on a piano) averages out the multiplier between successive notes on the scale. Everything is equally out of tune just a little bit, so no particular key is awful but no particular key is wonderful either"

That clears up the equal tempered thing for me, thanks.

Dp you listen to rock, Country Western, Western Swing, Old Time, Hip Hop, Jazz, Swing, Gypsy Swing,
that's all equal tempered tuning

I understand Cajun accordions tuned to other than equal temperment

but when they play with instruments that are glued to equal temperment like the guitar and bass guitar is the difference between the instruments part of the charm of the music
or is it not thought of as an issue?
Or is there something about the tunings of fretted string instruments I'm not understanding either?

Fretted instruments, and other fixed scale instruments like pianos are pretty much always going to be in equal temperment. There may be some rare exceptions, but nothing worth talking about.

Therefore, that means that there will be a combination of just tempered instruments (cajun accordion, maybe fiddle) in combination with equal tempered instruments (guitar, bass, etc.). Does this create a clash? I tend to think not, but that's just my opinion.

-David

Style, charm, and magic of the music

My son Michael, is a music major graduate. I got in a discussion with him once, about the tuning and the 15 cents flat and sharp "tempering". He started explaining to me why this is done, something to do with the numbers getting farther apart on the chart, causing the harmonics to drift apart, yada yada yada........ and the number is actually 14-1/2 cents but 15 is close enough for what we're trying to do.
He got way over my head real fast, but I realized two things. There is a reason why the 3rd and 7th note of the scale are tempered flat and the 4th tempered sharp and.... that boy actually learned a lot in collage!!!
Jude

Somebody with knowledge about music theory could maybe explain why the cajun-tuning fits better in their music.
Tuning a piano is something similar, because their are some strings,keys that are tune a few percents hihger or lower. (I believe)
Did the cajuns retune their accordions by feel/hear or because of their knowledge about music-theory ???

In an earlier post, it was revealed that when the Cajun Players' German accordeons went out of tune there were no Cajun tuners in LA and boxes were sent to Texas to be tuned

This tells me 2 things

When the Cajuns bought these accordeons they were already in JUST tuning

and

The Texas tuner was Tuning to "just" tuning


As to how and why Cajuns started tu nign to "just" tuning
Hard to tell but my guess is that 2 things are possible and a third possible but improbable

1. They had models made in Germany ( or elsewhere)
and tuned to those models

2. They tuned by ear to favor the chords

3. They got out a book on theory and decided that without hearing "just" tuning.. this was the tuning for them.. then they got out their ( expensive) strobe tuners and went for it

1. This one I belive for they simple reason that the Cajuns copied the German 1 row 4 stop accordeosn so why not also copy the tuning

2. Hard to believe this if their was not model but possible

3. Doubt it... literacy was a bit lower back in those days ( for everyone) and books, specifically theory books would be rare.. and who could afford a strobe tuner...

I would go with the obvious and easiest and most likely...


And I'll bet quite a few current accordeon makers copied the tuning off another accordeon before they bought an expensive tuner...


So Jude, did you buy a strobe( or other ) tuner on day one or evolve into it ?

intersting discussion..

I would like to know more about the history of accordeon making in Louisiana.. we have a bit from Savoy but I am betting that there are other paths, other information, and likely the tip of the iceberg

There is a thing called synchronious ( sp ) invention

As an example did you k ow the first airplane was actually built and flown in South America a few weeks before the Wright bros..... ?

My knowledge of this is second hand, but I have been told by one of the builders that they tuned by ear using the method or eliminating beats. This happens to end up as "just" tuning. There was no mathematical theorizing involved, just as there isn't in a barbershop quartet (they also sing in just tuning, but may not know that they are).

For the life of me, I can't remember who told me this. It could have been Mark Savoy, or Charlie Ortego. But it makes so much sense that it seems to be the most likely explanation.

-David

Using a standard single row diatonic, here is the wet sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjzRBg3cRcs

WF

Italian tuners consider JUST tuning OFF-TUNE.. OUT of tune.. ( why not allow that? their tastes and traditions are different ).

with a strobe tuner you take the readings of any of your Savoys, Martins, Falcons..and you can clone the tuning on any other box, if you are clever enough at filing reeds.. and just replicate the sound you like.

I see ( hear ) traditions ( opinions ) in tuning, tastes in tuning, but few truths in tuning.

one man's flat is another man's sharp?

viva la differenza .. G.

That's easy. Has nothing to do with tuning.

White music.
Black music.

There's your answer.

R!CK

What ? No blues ?

Yeah, yuh right. Both have a heady swig of blues!

R!CK

I think you guys are on to something here. I was going to bring in one of my accordions to be tuned pretty soon and start out by asking the maker to tell me how many different tunings he knew of, then ask him to let me play on an example of each. Given the chance that he may not have had an example of each available for me to play on, my next move would have been to demand him to reveal his "secret" tuning technique that he only used for the best of his customers. Then it would have escalated into a fistfight and I would have had to find another guy to tune for me. You guys seem to have a less hostile approach. LOL. All jokes aside, I really am glad yall are digging deeper into these types of subjects for everyone's sake and the possible betterment of the sounds produced by Cajun accordions.

Good to see you are still here..
I miss your comments