1. The German style (Cajun Accordion) plays in one diatonic scale. You can also play in a natural minor scale and in a major scale with a flat 7th (eg. G on a C accordion). --what advantage does equal temperament have on this kind of limited instrument that does not play in all 12 chromatic keys...NONE.

2. The button system is set up to play chords on the push and pull...all you have to do is mash some buttons and push...out comes a beautiful tonic chord with no wrong notes! Why tune in equal temperment when it causes the chord to sound sort of "trashy"? "Just" intonation really sweetens the chord. I don't think people needed any theory to figure this out...it is matter of making the instrument sound the best for the key that is was designed to play in.

3. Most early harmonicas (which is basically a one reed cajun "accordion" minus the bellows) are tuned to just intonation...because of the chord factor--it is just sweeter sounding. Special 20 by Hohner is a good example. Lee Oskar and Golden Melody (Hohner) use equal temperament for better solo single note playing in various keys. But the point is, the Cajuns weren't doing something new or novel, harmonicas have always been and continue to be available in both kinds of temperament--just and equal.

4. The raised 4th degree (F on a C accordion) is to sweeten up the blend between 45 pull...I personally do not have my accordions tuned like that because I like to play in the F position a lot and I don't like having a slightly sharped tonic or keynote when I play in F. This is only modification on my accordion that is different than the old traditional way of tuning...all the Es and Bs (on my C, for example) are slightly lowered to sweeten the C and G chords.

5. I had Mr. Ortego tune my accordion in equal temperament before I played the folklife fest in San Antonio 18 years ago. I wanted to try it and thought I might like it better than the traditional Cajun tuning. I really hated it! I did not realize how much of the "Cajun quality" comes from the just intonation or temperament. The blend I hated the most was the 7/10 pull...it just sounded really weak compared to just intonation. It almost sounded like the wrong chord all together...no Cajun "personality" to it at all. I got it retuned as soon as I got back to Lake Charles.

6. Other instruments are tuned in just intonation--open chord guitars for example...especially the ones played with a slide (in many styles, I might add). All the Cajun Steel players also use this just intonation...and of course the fiddle player also adjusts to fit the tuning (but mainly by paying attention to where he puts his fingers...not by actually re-tuning the strings.

I agree with you completely. I play a lot of Irish music on the uilleann pipes which is also just intonation and thats what makes it a beautiful instrument. If you tried to tune it to equal temp. (the notes on the chanter) it would sound horrible.

With Ireland's Tommy Keane (uilleann pipes) and his wife Jacqueline( concertina), the concertina is tuned to just intonation to match the pipes.

I listen to Irish button accordions and it does sound harsh and wonder why they don't tune it to just intonation. Most only play in a few keys like G, Am, D, Em.


That one reason I love the Cajun accordion, How sweet is is!!!!


.. Ed

SO, Taking all of the comments in the 2 previous posts are you advocating that all musicians for all types of music retune to "just" tuning..

The flavor of the Cajun music is "just" tuning

The flavor of Quebec music and Irish and Breton and French and Tex Mex an Vallanato and fooro, and chorro, and Flamenco and classical and rockabilly etc is all in tempered tuning

I play a bit of Cajun but also play other styles..
In other styles which are single note oriented tempered tuning sounds "right" adn "just" tuning sounds right for a Cajun box.
If I were to choose one tuning for all styles it would be "tempered" 12 TET

Interesting.. that is the first that I have heard that the uillean pipes are "just" tuned..
If you don't mind I'll check that out for myself.

I do not find Irish button accordeon harsh, but that is a subjective and personal opinion.
And the better players such as Jackie Daly and Mairtin O'Connor and many others play in all keys.. BIlly McComiskey in America is another example.

1. Quebec and some Irish players play in 5 or 6 keys on a single rwo..

2. Not all styles of music ar chord oriented.. and of course the revered Savoy breaks out of the opure "just" tuning and his playing sounds great to my ear.. actually sweeter.. point blank ask him why he does it ?.. because it sounds better to "him" and many of the buyers of his accordeons think so as well.

3. Harmonicas are harmonicas and not mouth nblown Cajun accordeons.. "Cajun" accordions are bellows blown harmonicas.. matter of fact in many parts of europe these boxes are called "harmionikas"
And many harmonicas are a modified and compromise of just and tempered...
I believe in one of my earlier posts I used the Spec 20, MArine band as examples of just and the Golden Meklody and the Lee oskar as examples of tmepered.. and the Lee Oskars are I beluieve tuned to 442 not 440

4, So your accordeons are not "just" tuned.. they are in fact tempered if the 4th is not raiesd.

5. So which "tempered" tuning did Mr Ortego use and was it dry or wet ?

6. Guitars and other fretted instruments are a whole nuther world.. and pure just tuning is near impossible even with the saddles shifted on the B and sometiomes G and so on...

Slide.. yeah thats's possible but they cannot "tune" to "just"
and of course fiddle players can fudge

Observation... your last line said it... Just tuning gives Caun music its personality ,as does tempered tuning for Quebec and Irish and so on

Horses for courses

Hi Jeff,

Don't know you and I am definitely not trying to discredit anything you have said. The tone of your responses seems sort of like you want to debate on every point I made. These points were only "my thoughts."

1. Quebec and Irish players playing in different keys...very true. Here are the keys I and many other Cajun players play in on the C accordion--C, G, F, Am, D blues, E Blues. The bulk of what I do is in C, F, and G however and the tuning I use is good for those keys. To me, E sounds a little weird because the Es are flat to the equal tempered standard...and if everyone else is equal tempered then my first scale degree (tonic) in E sounds flat. This playing position is common, however, to Zydeco when playing a minor flavored-bluesy Zydeco. I don't like how the Es sound when I play in E minor mode...but that is really rare for me. If I had to choose between equal and just, I would still pick "just" because of how the 3/6, 6/7 and 6/10 pull blends sound and how all the C chord things sound on the push. I was really surprised at how it really changed the "timbre" of the sound...and the effect of the blend. (check out the link on just intonation and listen to the examples)

2. Who said music was all chord oriented? I teach medieval Gregorian chant at school...that is not chord oriented. I don't get your point. I was talking about "instruments" that are set up for playing chords...they, many times, are just tuned...especially if they "just" play in one or two keys. My accordion is tuned like the Savoy per my request before I ever knew that Marc Savoy did such a thing. I have been playing since 1980. I know that the earlier Savoy boxes definitely had a raised by 15 cents 4th scale degree. Savoy later stopped doing this (I don't know what year...maybe 70s or maybe 80s) and has even suggested to other builder to stop doing it...to each his own, however.

3. Harmonica vs. accordion...whether one is a blown accordion or the other is a bellow driven harmonica...whatever...the point is instruments made in one key have long been tuned to the just scale. that was my point. 442 or 441--that has nothing to do with temperament. Lee Oskar--The whole instrument is tuned sharp, Lee Oskar claims that his are tuned 441. The relationship between scale degrees is what temperament is concerned with. By the way, many Cajun boxes were tuned 441 or 442 for a brighter more cutting edge. I think that this is still a practice in other accordion traditions.

4. I am not convinced that just intonation would raise the 4th scale degree as much as the Cajun tuners have done...that is why I still call mine "just intonation" even the the F's are not as sharp as the "Cajun Traditional" tuning. (again, listen to the samples...that is what my scale sounds like...the just example...not the Cajun Traditional example with the 4th degrees tuned +15 cents.

5. Mr. Ortego commonly used this tuning on a C accordion--Es and Bs were -15 from equal and the F was +15. I asked him 20 years ago to stop tuning my F sharp 15 cents. That is the tuning I have used since. Dry or wet has no relation to the temperament or relation from scale degree to scale degree. well, now since you ask it...equal sounds more "wet"...more beats when you play blends of two or more notes. Mr. Ortego never tuned any boxes (to my knowledge) except mine to equal temperament...and I had it retuned within a month.

6. Whenever a guitar players tunes to an open chord tuning, I would venture a guess that, more often than not, they are playing a more "sweet" tuning than standard equal temperament...your ear will make you adjust those thirds after you use the tuner...Dolly Parton tunes like this and lays her finger flat behind the fret to make different chords up and down the neck (I guess she has to do this becasue she doesn't want to clip those long nails.) But anyway, Lap Steel and Cajun steel players definitely lower the thirds...I just played with RC Vanicor Friday night..he has played steel in the Cajun style for at least 55 years...he has always tempered his thirds.

Fiddle tuning--when I tune to a Black Mountain Rage tuning like AEAC# I always tune the C# a bit lower than equal temperament...because this tuning emaphasizes droning strings and this makes for the most pleasant sweet "chording" sounds...if you tune the C# straight up on the tuner you will hear what I am talking about...or maybe you won't...took me a while to be convinced of all this...

On your last comment--I think a culture, over time, absorbs a certain tuning and timbre and begins to identify with it as being the standard. I for one am glad that we have our own unique thing going on down here...just the like the Quebecois and Irish have their own thing. And I am also glad that such a thing as our Cajun tuning history would stir such great discussion.

FYI for steel guitar players.. this makes interesting readin

Did not mean to sound as though I am "debating"

However.. since there are no absolutes.. I would take your comments to be opinons and other opinions would be welcomed..
forgive me if I misunderstood

To continue:

1. As I said earlier.. Quebec and other music styles are not chord oriented and therefor tuned to an equal temperament.. this does not mean right, good, bad or the only way

2. No one including me said "all" music was chord oriented
my point is that Just tuning is done to favor chords..
Savoy's tuning by definition is "tempered" a modification of just tuning and still sounds "Cajun" and sounds good to me as does regular pure just tuning in the right context ie.. Cajun music

3. Well aware that 441 or 442 etc has nothing whatever to do with just otr tempered and that was my point guess I wasn;t clear.. this was brought up in another thread.. I should have connected them

Most Quebec acordions are tuned 440 thouygh not rigid

matter of fact their old standard tuning was 440 for the bass and piccolo and minus 5 and plus 5 cents for the middle reeds.. that has chanc=ged in recent years

5. I have rpeatedly posted that dry and wet have nothing to do with just and tempered
read my previous posts...

6. Dolly Parton ( I am told) also has her autoharps tuned to "just" tuning

See the link above to a discussion on the Peterson tuner duiscussion group referencing tunigns specific to steel players.. very interesting

As a fanatic of history I am always ecitied about the evolution and transportation of music from one culture to another....

Who would have thought that my Swedish ancestors
( the others being Bohemians) built bagpipes that were slightly sharp of Eb as a standard pitch...

My forst 1 row 4 stoppper was a German made unti that was off Bb in tune with itself and "just" tuned

it dated to around 1915

I also have an 1880ish (perhaps earlier) all original 2 row in D/G and a third row of 2 accidentals ... it is in original pitch

One day I'll check it and see whwere the numbers come out

I agree that the Just tuning makes Cajun music what it is.. I can't imagine it in anything else.. it would lose its soul.

Glad we both agree that all we are doing is batting around ideas and opinions.

Interesting reading aobut the steel stuff.

I would disagree that Savoys tuning is a tempered or "unjust" tuning. If you listen to the scale on the previous just intonation site, the fourths are pretty close to the equal tempered fourth degree...but in pure Cajun tuning, the fourth degree is very sharp. My opinion is, that as far as labels are concerned, what Savoy is doing and the way my box is tuned is closer to a true just tuning than the traditional Cajun way. Yes, I know the F/A third is not perfect, but having the fourth scale degree 15 cents sharp is a bit peculiar...but sometimes I kind of like that...but only when I am playing straight-ahead traditional Cajun music with few chords and keys of tunes...but maybe I am misunderstanding what Mark is doing. I am not aware of him doing anything other than keeping the F "as-is, ie. standard pitch"...the Bs and Es are lowered to my knowledge. I know he always lets his ear be the final guide...not the stobe scope...hmm...

Opinion Alert

"Cajun" tuning is like a "Cajun" accordeon..
done by a Cajun


If anyone , whether Mark Savoy or anyone else, is tuning to other than pure "just" tuning... by definition it is a "tempered" tuning..

these are not labels but definitions of terms

Thanks to Chris and Jeff for a good discussion on equal and just tuning.

To me it is what your ear has become accustom to. A concert violinist
and a Appalachian or Cajun fiddler may see different views on the subject.

Again thanks very much for sharing your opinions.... Ed

AS someone who enjoys a lot of music from a variety of ethnic styles... allow me draw a parallel between music and and interesting cool places to live


Let's take as an example Pacific Grove California..

In 1957 there were Portuguese and Chinese and Italians and blacks and Methodists ( this town was started as a Methodist retreat) lots of elderly folk 11,ooo people in total..glass bottom Boats, railroad came through town, Very cool mobile home park
a swimming pool with ocean water...
So here we are in 2007 .. Virtually no Blacks, Italians, Portuguese, or Chinese..
The railroad is gone Glass Bottom Boats gone, Tom's CHinese Restaurant gone, Methodist Church built in the 1880's and the largest Neo Gothic building in the west.. gone..
Who did it.. yuppies
SO they saw this cool town and made it over into their image.. in effect destroying a culture
The essence of Pacific Grove is gone and the the yup'n'coming now have the audacity to call PAcific Grove "The LAst Home Town" they are clueless
Why destroy that which was ther reason you got there...

To that list of destroyed places by the "cognoscenti" I would include.. Seattle, Taos, Jerome Arizona, Silver City New Mexico.. anywhere in Colorado or Wyoming... Pt Townsend Washington or LA Conner,

I hope you understand what I mean...

I appreciate that what makes a culture unique..and only attempt to understand it better....

By the way the Bretons in France managed to keep their culture intact including their language and music which also has a rich accordeon history...
Like Cajun Louisiana it was illegal to speak Breton for many generations......

Ok same goes for ethnic music...
example HAwaii... along come the British then the Portuguese and the braquinha (sp) which became the uke and now you have "Hawaiin" music... so what happened to all the cool chanting and the drums..

I understand the evolution of a culture and of assimilation but I just can;t see taking Cajun Accordeon and switching to tempered tuning.. it would not be the same...

FYI

2nd link specifically on the music.. note the accordeon was added in the 1900's

My early interest in accordeon involved Breton music.. I have quite a few recordings...

unusual stuff.. an acquired taste !

Between the triangle of Houston, Austin and San Antonio, the character of most of the small towns have in varying degrees been altered into weekend retreats for the new rich. Gruene, just outside New Braunsfels and near San Antonio is flooded with weekend Harley riders as is Fredericksburg. SW Louisiana is close enough to Houston to be turned into a weekend retreat as well. Hopefully, the culture of SW LA is strong enough to withstand the onslaught. I'm sure those who live there have already seen the changes, perhaps begun with the casinos in Lake Charles etc. Is it a bad thing? A matter of point-of-view I suppose.

Since most accordions have some degree of wetness, How do you get true just vs tempered tuning. I would think the wetter the tuning the less distinct the two.