I discovered something while tuning the Hohner to 10 cents off...

It seemed (to my ears that) the dissonance between the wet mid bank and the rest of the reed banks (L,H,M) was not even among the notes while sounding all together. Particularly the lowest and some of the higher reeds.

While I tuned the whole mid bank to exactly 10 cents off for each note, I realized that if I slightly lowered the a few bassy mids and a couple higher mids, the dissonance sounded much more even and crisp.

Have any of you folks ever noticed this, especially on lower keyed accordions?

I was delighted to discover this

Jim...sorry I can't help you on this...

I would really like to see a short video of the process you go through tuning an accordion...is there any chance you could post a YouTube 'primer' for those of us who'll never do it - but are curious about how it's done?

...not the whole instrument - just a couple of keys (or even one)...

There is a good starter video about tuning Cajun accordions, 45 minutes long included on Marc Savoy's "Gospel Accordion Volume II" DVD.

That video is well worth it's weight in gold! It can be found at savoymusiccenter.com

It is very helpful, but you have to really pay attention.

I must admit, I do not tune my reeds inside the accordion. My pull reeds, I tune by taking them out.

Anyway, how in the hell could anyone tune the reeds while they're inside a Hohner???

I can see how easy it is for a handmade reed set-up. Those are a breeze compared to Hohners

There's three kinds of people: Those that can count and those that can't. But my two cents none the less. I don't think going purely by a mathmatical formula is necessarily what pleases the ear. Since the deal with wet tuning is getting that pulse, tuning a certain number of cents off across the board won't result in those pulses being the same across the board. The pulse for A 440 and ten cents off note will be different than the pulse for A 220 and its ten cent off note. . Therefore, some adjustment has to be made to make it a bit more appealing. Can't test out that theory till I get home, though.

Steve

I am far from an expert on this topic. But, I do remember a discussion about tuning, and the use of equal tempered scale vs. well tempered vs. just tempered. As we know, most instruments are tuned using the equal tempered system (pianos, for example). However, that is not quite the whole story. Apparently, piano tuners do things slightly differently with the low notes so that the overall sound is better. I don't know what that is exactly, but people who know about piano tuning seem to say "Oh yeah, of course...".

-David

Yes,
Jim you are correct.
There is a formula you can use to keep the beat the same for for all notes.

I posted it on this board several months ago.
It really works!

Here it is again.
----------------begin repost------------------
progressive wet tune means that the high pitched reads are tuned "off pitch" less than the lower pitched reeds.

This allows the "beat" or "wave" of each note to be approximately the same up and down the keyboard.

Once you decide on the base frequency of each note you can calculate it mathmatically. Assuming approximately 15 cents is your base wet tuning. On a Bb box your center note would be F and the beat frequency would be 3.21

1200*(LN((note frequency+3.21)/frequency)/LN(2))=the number of cents off to tune the note.

So the note frequency of F is 349.228 so
1200*(LN((349.228+3.21)/349.228)/LN(2))= 15.84

Just plug in a different note frequency for each note and you have your complete progressing tuning map.

DP

Arg! I'm getting geek all over me reading this tuning stuff! How do you guys just know this from the hip without being builders?! Very impressive...

R!CK

I will apply this to my Hohner accordions, too cool!

I need a real good tuner. I've been using a small guitar tuner that is pretty ****ed accurate but doesn't have real exact split measurements. Also doesn't pick up the highest and lowest notes so well.

I tune from the middle of the scale, then out, because of this! Easy to make octaves to tune, once you have any given root tuned perfectly.

Sorry . I can't videotape any of this because I only a digital photo camera to make a video. Needless to say it doesn't go beyond ten minutes or so and the sound quality and video quality are crap.

Yeah, you are right...
A Peterson strobo-tuner, or a Peterson "virtual strobe" is the only way to go if tuning an accordion.

Using a guitar tuner will just be frustrating, as it is not accurate enough.

DP

I would just like to know what a "cent" actually amounts to? Does it have something to do with decibel level, or the varience high or low from the natural note, i.e, is it an accidental, or what exactly does it measure? And why would anybody want to screw around changing a $ 2,000.00 instrument in the first place?
JB

A cent is a 100th of a semitone.

A semitone is the smallest interval of a note in the "western" musical scale.

And you are right, every time you retune the reeds you weaken them and reduce their life.

So, I agree, have a pro do it, or learn from a pro, or practice on a cheapo Hero accordion before messing with a $2000 box!

DP

Don't worry, the geek you get on you won't hurt, but it is contagious!

And I hate to say it, but this stuff ain't from the hip. I learned from Ed Lucenbach, who worked in Jr.s shop learning how to build and repair from Jr.

But I had to turn to my brother, the musical mathmatical genius, to help me work up the formula in the first place.

DP

BTW, this only works if you know the note frequency in the first place.

But that is available online in a variety of places.
DP

Published note frequencies will be those of the equal temperered system, but on our Cajun accordions, we like the just system. Can those note frequencies be easily looked up, or must we derive them mathematically? They are simple ratios derived from the naturally occuring overtones, so I suppose it shouldn't be too hard.

Start with A 440, the octave is 880, because the 1st harmonic is exactly double the fundamental. The fifth of the scale can be found with the 2nd harmonic, which doesn't come out as a nice even number unfortunately. The fourth of the scale is gotten from the 3rd harmonic, which is comes out to 1760. And the process continues on until you get the entire scale.

-David

This is truly accordion nerd heaven!
I ......ing love it.

Right!

Do you ever hear of a French horn player, cello player, or even a clarinet player (what I was able to really squeek-out on in High School) modifying their instruments to achieve that minute degree of disidence that will be able to offend all normal ranges of human hearing. I mean, those instruments already sound bad enough already in the hands of the less than well tutored. I say, if some capable person in Louisiana tuned the accordion that way, leave it be!
my 2 cents, or 1/100 of a semitone, which I still think may be some mythical concoction.
JB

You are right, you need to dicide on your temperament first.

I used "standard Cajun tuning" to decide on the frequencies. (I know there is debate of what that is.)

I use 3rd and 7th -15 cents and 4th +15 cents.

Dana

Dana,
What does "LN" represent in your progressive wet tuning formula?

Dale

LN stands for Natural logarithm.
(don't ask me why it's not "NL")!

DP

Special thanks to Dale that pointed out that the correct formula should have "log", not "Natural log"
or the numbers won't come out right.

DP

i think since the LN appears twice, it works either way

LN or LOG10

wle.