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CAJUN ACCORDION DISCUSSION GROUP

 

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Re: Feedback control

Cardioid mike is best for feedback control if
positioned properly with respect to monitor.

But keeping an accordion from feeding back is more
difficult.

Monitor mixes can be an absolute nightmare, especially
in a large band with electric instruments.

The in-ear monitors eliminate feedback but have their
own set of "minuses".

Also .. be careful with monitor equalization and
feedback controllers. I've experienced where the
"sound-man" will EQ 'till the cows come home,
eliminating feedback but removing monitor "intelligence"
in the process. You can create very loud monitors
that have amplitude in frequency ranges that are
useless!

Unfortunately, you need someone who knows what
they're doing to help mix while you perform and set-up.
But gigs just don't pay enough for one to hire such a
person

Now .. "Can't we all .. just .. turn down?"

--bn

Re: Feedback control

Lets talk about the accordion player ( YOU ). The biggest problem with feedback that I've seen is with internal mic'ed accordions. I have seen feedback with externals, but not near as much. So let me guess, you move up to the vocal mic to sing and there comes the feedback??? The problem is that you are mobile. And you have a relationship with a vocal mic and the monitor speaker,if you sing. I would strongly suggest that you use a pedal EQ in line on your accordion so that you can EQ the accordion separate from your monitor mix, because in most cases, the accordion mic is what's causing the feedback. That usually takes care of most of the feedback problems. I use a Boss GE-7. Simple, easy and it solves most of the accordion feedback problems. BTW Dwight, I learned that lesson at Isleton. We had Gabe ( sound tech) EQ the monitor to make a B-flat accordion sound "good" . Guess what happened when swapped over to a "C"? BAD BAD things came out of those speakers! DON'T change the EQ of your monitor to suit an individual instrument. Set your monitor EQ "clean" so that you can get max gain before feedback, and EQ the instrument separately. That's the way to go for me.

Re: Feedback control

Hey, didn't mean for that to come across as (YOU) are the problem, but more that, (YOU/WE/ME, the accordion player) are the only "mic" that moves around on stage. After reading it back to myself, it looked like it could be taken wrong. The point I was really trying to make is, "it's hard to hit a moving target" . Hope I didn't offend anyone.

Re: Feedback control

Jude, you hit it on the head. "I" am a problem. Just read my posts on here.

No, I'm not having transient feedback during the gig. Just when setting up and trying to get my monitor loud enough.

Re: Feedback control

Try that inline EQ for your accordion. I'll bet it solves your problem!

Re: Feedback control

Hey Jude,

Are you saying to use the Boss EQ to set the EQ of the accordion with the level turned way up in the monitor to "find" the feedback frequencies and adjust it live until it quits feeding back?

I used to use the Boss to adjust my "sound" with my internal mic'd accordions. I mean adjust the sound to suit my taste in sonic sweetness. My band mate was down on the Boss and thought I should leave it to the sound guy. Thought I had too much in the pedal dept.

Do you think it's best to leave it to the front of house or adjust the sound yourself? Nowadays I leave it to the sound guy. May be a mistake. Never know what you get.

What do most guys with internal mics do?

If I recall, I had feedback around 630 and 400 in the past.

Most sound guys just turn down my monitor instead of ferreting out the problem freq. from the front of house.
Good sound guys can fix it fast.

kirk

Re: Feedback control

Hey Kirk, from the standpoint of a sound tech, the monitor system has one job, to let the performer hear what he/she is doing. I think you'll agree that we as individuals, all have our own tastes as far as what sounds "good" . All too many times, we try to make the monitor sound "good" to us instead of getting it clean. That usually results in a feedback problem at some point. Especially when you're dealing with a "mobile" mic ( the accordion ). When I"m running sound, I try to get the monitor system "clean" with max gain before feedback, and I make it "sound good" out front. It's important to understand, that unless you're dealing with professional grade equipment with a separate monitor board, you probably don't have individual channel EQ control. So in order to make the accordion "sound good" in the monitors, you have to change to EQ of the entire monitor system. That's NEVER a good idea. I'm suggesting that instead of doing that, use the Boss EQ inline on the accordion and set the sound like you want it. If it feeds back, then you can deal with it separately by using the Boss EQ.. With all that said, I"m not that picky on the sound of my accordion in the monitors. I just need to hear it, so I don't always use the Boss when it's me playing. Where I run into problems is when running sound at a festival, where I'm dealing with different musicians and different keyed accordions. I get two things from accordion players: "can you add some mids/highs/bass" ? and: "can you turn it up" ?. ( I can pick on accordion players, because I'm one of 'em!)They're asking this based on what they hear from the monitors. ( not out front, where it sound "good" ..... to me? ) Guess what happens if I add mids/high and then turn it up? Yep, FEEDBACK. Solution: Boss G-7 on the accordion line.
So, is that clear as mud to you? I guess in the end, we just do the best we can and make the best music we can, and most important, HAVE FUN DOING IT!

Re: Feedback control

Hey Jude,

My boards (24 channel Allen & Heath and 16 channel Mixwizard Allen & Heath both have 6 aux's, so we usually have 4 mixes and can run reverb through another aux.

I have 5 channels of 31 band EQ so we can EQ each monitor mix(four) and the FOH.

We should be able to EQ my monitor (accordion, fiddle, and vox) to eliminate feedback on hot frequencies separate from FOH(front of house)

Wouldn't that be the way to go?

The Boss EQ pedal would then be used to "shape" my sound before it hits the board and returns to the monitors and is sent to FOH.

Does that sound right to you?

Kirk

Re: Feedback control

That should do the trick kirk!

Re: Feedback control

Kirk, if anything ever happens to you, I want your board.

Re: Feedback control

Dwight,
one thing about your hyper cardoid mic, for it to work well for feedback suppression you need to have your lips practically kissing the mic.

So set your vocal sound level with your mouth right on the mic and you will see a big difference in feedback control.

I was using hypercaroid mics on Tuesday at Ashkenaz and the first set the sound tech had them up too high, so we had to back off of the mic. wadda ya know, feedback.

I told them to turn it down during the second set, we were able to get right on the mics and all feedback was gone.

DP

Re: Feedback control

Thanks Dana.

long subject / i disagree with most of the answers

long subject
i disagree with most of the answers

comments:
dwight i thought you were getting a roland

internal mics usually feedback LESS than external, IMHO
unless they are not set up right
i never have feedback with mine

re vocals - get more sound into the mics
either sing louder or closer
then you don;t turn it up so high

having monitors close to the singer does NOT help
problem with that is, now moving 6" closer or farther to the monitor, is a BIGGER difference
move away and you can;t hear, move closer and you have sudden feedback

i use a boss GE7 too but to set a general sound for accordion, ie, i don;t like it too bright
i do not use it to eliminate feedback
i don;t have it to begin with
plus its bands are not narrow enough to really help

feedback eliminators are just one more doodad
they can mess the sound up and still not remove the feedback

main thing is, get more sound into the mics
if you have internal mics, get them close to the reeds, not over in some dusty corner where they fit conveniently..
sing louder and closer

wle

Re: long subject / i disagree with most of the answers

I do 4 sound guy gigs for every gig I get to play out with my accordions, so what the heck - more opinions!

David is right on about the hypercardiod: monitor should be off to one side. I've used Beta 58a's for vocals for dozens of shows and the offset really works.

Kirk is using the "pro" and expensive approach: use a separate EQ for your monitor so you can suppress the hot, problem frequencies that are occuring on stage with your instrument and your mic without coloring the house EQ. Usually a minor adjustment will make a touchy frequency safe: no need to kill the sound; a problem Dana (I think it was Dana) called out.

Jude's approach gives him control at the player's position, so he may be affecting the sound in the house, but Jude - if I understand - you are also balancing the sound to suit your ear.

I'm (maybe?) agreeing with Larry that a feedback killer isn't such a great investment. Every combination of monitor, microphone and room is going to have its over-sensitive frequencies, and judicious use of an EQ can actually tame the combination into sounding more natural.

And there's always the question of whether a) the gain needs to be so hot on the accordion mic [they are a pretty strong sound source], and b) do you need the monitor to be so freaking loud?

Steve Blais

Re: long subject / i disagree with most of the answers

I need the monitor to be louder than it is to hear my vocals coming back at me so I'm not straining to be heard above the mix.

Also "so freaking loud" is an unknown at this point since no one but me really knows how loud that is.

Re: long subject / i disagree with most of the answers

Hey Dwight - nothing personal with the "so freaking loud" comment - just a reflection of my experience working with fried-ear electric blues veterans in a 300 seat house: the monitor volume winds up being as loud as the main speakers!

My experience with monitors is: it's all relative. You can't hear your voice (or mandolin or whatever) until it's just a hair louder than the background sounds, and then, all of a sudden, it jumps right out at you.

The corollary is: if you can keep stage volume lower, you don't need as much monitor. That said, and not knowing your whole band setup: experimenting with monitor placement and a little EQ will probably go a long way towards solving your problem.

Steve

Re: long subject / i disagree with most of the answers

Hi Steve,

Sorry, I was being ******** I'm so new at this, I'm just trying to figure it out, with no one handy to help me. Drum volume, I would think, is not going to be that controllable without affecting the dancers. Amped people are on the other side of the drums from me. I can't be sure if my monitor level is already "loud enough" of if I just don't know what I'm doing. The latter is high on the list.

Re: long subject / i disagree with most of the answers

I only know a couple of songs on the Roland so far (lack of a thumb strap makes it not as easy to just port over existing songs if there's jumps on the keyboard).

I sing loud already. Can get distortion if I don't watch it.

Break the thumb strap habit for triple row.

Dwight, lose the thumb strap on the triple row! You don't need it - it will only slow you down and get in the way.

Also, if you get distortion when you sing loud, that is probably an indication that the gain is too high for that channel. Does your board have a little light for each channel that shows when you are clipping? You need to set the gain so that when you are singing as loud as you need to sing, that it only lights up a little bit, now and then. If it is on a lot, the gain is too high. If it is never on, the gain is too low.

Aside from that, there is a second way to get clipping on a channel. It can happen when the master volume is set relatively low, and the channel volume is higher. For example, on a scale of 0 to 10, the master volume is set to 2 or 3, but the channel volume is higher than that, say at 7 or 8. In general, the master volume needs to be set at a higher level than the channel volume.

Re: Break the thumb strap habit for triple row.

Triple row does not have a thumb strap. And I'm used to playing with one. So, songs where I jump down to the 7/10 buttons, etc, are prone to error. So far. One I wrote on my double row (with thumb strap), is prone to error when I jump to the top of the box, when I don't have a thumb strap. It will just take time and practice. Or just learning new songs for the triple row and slowly incorporating the others. However, some songs aren't for the triple row, so.....

Regarding the distortion, I do set it to where it just clips, then back it off. I think the problem is, when I'm testing, the full band is not playing, so I'm not singing as loud as I would be with the band. I have no gauge. I do have a tendency to sing loud, guess I have strong lungs, but sometimes I get a little over-exhilarated and overdo it. Particularly when I'm trying to hear myself.

I'll check the other thing you mentioned.

Re: Break the thumb strap habit for triple row.

also if you free the thumb, you can use it

piano and chromatic players do it

i don;t

most of the time i use mr strap

wle

you could set it at home, and mark it

"Regarding the distortion, I do set it to where it just clips, then back it off. I think the problem is, when I'm testing, the full band is not playing, so I'm not singing as loud as I would be with the band. "

==ok well set it for shouting, there is no reason to have it ever clip..

==one other comment, this setting would always be the same for a given channel, board and mic

-==you could set it at home, and mark it -
there is no need to set it every time, it's just one more thing to worry about at setup time, and you don;t really have to

==just put the mic close to your mouth, sing as hard as you can, turn gain up til red light comes on, mark it

wle

you can actually do this for the whole band

you can actually do this for the whole band if they always use the same mic, position, board channel..

i always know where to set my singers gains, because i do keep all that stuff the same

drum mics and guitar amp mics vary though
since i don;t control guitar amp knobs or exact mic placement

and i may not place drum mics in same spot every time

and i am never sure where the GE7 output is set, so i have to set the accordion gain every time, or if it seems wrong

but the singers are always set

unless the guitar player says 'i may lose my voice and don;t want to sing loud', then i may reset his initial gain for that.. then he ends up singing loud anyway, so i go dial it back


wle

Is your hat causing feedback?

That is, if you wear a hat.

I've found that, when wearing a hat, the brim can
cause an audio reflection. The monitor sound
bounces off the brim on one's hat and into the
front of the microphone.

It's kind of difficult to explain, but it has happened
to me. It's akin to the technique of partially cupping
one's hand over the microphone to see if you're set
on the edge of feedback.

Maybe someone needs to invent a hat with built-in
GOBO.

--big

learn something every day !

Gobo is a slang term used by sound recording engineers to refer to a movable acoustic isolation panel.

==and i thought i was an acoustics guy
you learn something every day !

wle

Re: Is your hat causing feedback -- hat-trick

Nick, a hat like this one might reflect surrounding monitor sounds towards the floor ...



or with this one they pass right through:



Nout



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