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CAJUN ACCORDION DISCUSSION GROUP

 

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Re: Anyone ever have the flapper break off the wires? Jude? Bryan?

I talked to Larry the other day. He's making boxes again...

Re: Anyone ever have the flapper break off the wires? Jude? Bryan?

Kirk, Larry is building again, actually, he never really stopped. If it's the wire that broke, I'm guessing at the screw flats, the only way to get an exact match is with Larry. We all use our own bending jigs so they are all a little different.

Re: Anyone ever have the flapper break off the wires? Jude? Bryan?

I have had this happen on a couple different accordions. The most recent occurrences happened at the spot where the metal is flattened out a bit for the screws to the flapper - an obvious point of weakness.

I fixed it with some Marine quality epoxy. The stuff from Home Depot was never strong enough.

Very annoying when it happens!

Re: Anyone ever have the flapper break off the wires? Jude? Bryan?

Aluminum comes in so many different alloys, and all seem more brittle than copper. Anyone had a copper arm break? Also depends on how deep the screw flats ares stamped.

I have come to think that this problem is a design flaw of the Cajun accordion

Ever since I got my first Acadian, I have been plagued by bent and broken flapper wires.

I now think that it is a flawed design. It is inherently weak and the likelihood of failure is very high.

Re: I have come to think that this problem is a design flaw of the Cajun accordion

It is definitely inherently weak, all in the name of cosmetics. Flattening out that spot for the screw definitely weakens metal. A lot of accordions go a lifetime without breaking. David, is the ones you had breaking copper or aluminum?

Re: I have come to think that this problem is a design flaw of the Cajun accordion

I have had both kinds break. The most recent break was right in the middle of the screw hole on the flattened area. But I have also had them snap off at the base of the keyboard - where the wire goes into the little wood pivot block.

Aside from breaking, there is also the bending problem, which causes air leaks.

For me, the various problems seem to happen most on buttons 5 and 6, which are among the most frequently played buttons. I probably hit 'em too hard. I know I should use a lighter touch, but after all these years, it would be like expecting a leopard to change his spots. Probably won't happen.

I have made modifications in my keyboards to limit the problem. I put little shims inside which limit how far the buttons "sink" into the keyboard. That has helped a lot. Somebody on the forum here gave me the suggestion a year or two ago. I have also adjusted the springs on the problem buttons. By increasing the tension just a little bit by removing one coil from the spring. It helps hold the flapper to the face of the accordion for a better seal.

Re: I have come to think that this problem is a design flaw of the Cajun accordion

If it was a design flaw I would think we'd see much higher incidences of them failing. I will admit that stamping it does make that spot weaker but in the 11 years I've been playing I've only ever come across one player that has broken a rod on his accordion and it was on a box fitted with aluminum wire.

John

Re: I have come to think that this problem is a design flaw of the Cajun accordion

That chit don't happen on a M A R T I N. Acadian lol who would have thunk??????

Re: I have come to think that this problem is a design flaw of the Cajun accordion

Doesn't hapen on a brick either...

Re: I have come to think that this problem is a design flaw of the Cajun accordion

Not on a Martin? I wouldn't be so sure about that. Same design.

Re: I have come to think that this problem is a design flaw of the Cajun accordion

Hate to bust your bubble Randy, I've replaced broken rods on Martins too. It's not a matter of who built the instrument, we all use the same basic design and we all use the same type materials. It's a matter of stress and metal fatigue.

Re: I have come to think that this problem is a design flaw of the Cajun accordion

Exactly.

Thank you for bringing a dose of reality to this aspect of the discussion.

Re: I have come to think that this problem is a design flaw of the Cajun accordion

I forgot to add that I've replaced both aluminum and copper. They usually break across the back screw hole because that is the weakest point with the most stress. Several things contribute to the stress. The most obvious is playing time. The other major factor is, if there is a need to readjust the valve by bending it up or down, length ways, the spot on the rod that will "bend" is right across, or just behind the back screw hole. As most of us mechanically minded folks know, when you bend a metal object back and forth in the same spot, we create "metal fatigue" and the metal will eventually break. Aluminum doesn't have as much elasticity as copper, so it will tend to break with less stress. But because copper is softer and bends more easily, it tends to get out of adjustment easier, requiring it to be readjusted more often. Hope that helps the understanding a little better.

Re: I have come to think that this problem is a design flaw of the Cajun accordion

Thanks for the input Jude. But you can get some pretty stiff copper and that helps. You may find that bare #8 copper ground wire is stiffer than alum being used on most accordions.

Re: I have come to think that this problem is a design flaw of the Cajun accordion

The strength of a wire, copper or aluminum or steel is also dependent on whether or not, and how, the wire was "tempered"

Re: I have come to think that this problem is a design flaw of the Cajun accordion

This is inherent to "Cajun" made accordeons and failures are not seen in most Euro made 1 row ten key, two base, 4 reed, bellows driven aerophones known acs accordeons.. copied by Cajun builders.

It is not a design flaw as much as a choice of materials and a design flaw in the Cajun made boxes. It is a case of an expedient builder in history without better materials or design experience making something that becomes a "tradition"... a failed tradition, that continues with modern makers.

Re: I have come to think that this problem is a design flaw of the Cajun accordion

Jeez, you're a lot more fun on the mandolin forum and the acoustic guitar Site as well... come on Jeff-san, relax. ;- )

How about this place Jeff?

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/19560-Williams-Hwy_Williams_OR_97544_M28301-46490?row=26&source=web

Is that anywhere near you? Do you go to Medford or Grants Pass for shopping? I seriously want to move to Oregon after I retire.... I think... ;- )

Re: How about this place Jeff?

Tommy...

I "shop" in Gts Pass and Medford.

Medford is just another town without much character.

Gts Pass is becoming a very cool town.

Applegate Valley is ok.. ther's a north and south valley.


Come visit, you're welcome any time.

I have ragged on thise stupid flappers for almost 20 years.

It is rare to see a Cajun made box with flappers aligned front and back and perpendicular to the keyboard and parallel to pone another.
Add that silly foil and red paint.. yowzah.
The wires were often copper wire for large motor windings. And when the motor builders stoped using copper they went o aluminum, as if that's an improvement either for an electrical application or an accordeon.

Some of this wire (usually copper) was square in cross section and some of the builders used it on the diagonal which gave some increased strength... but when you smash it for the screws... all that goes down the scupper.

This seriously is in need of some improvement.

Hohner had it right and still does.

Castagnari has it right.

Note both of them use hairpin springs rather than coils.. another improvement that the traditionalists will avoid and offer "proof" why coils are better.

I just don't get using the armature wire...

Why not simply use some tempered steel wire of a much smaller diameter ?

Possibly because then you couldn't use those cheezy little screws on the flappers.

Is that better , Tommy ? : )


Re: How about this place Jeff?

Well it matches the butt joints right? ;- ) -LLL-

By the way, Williams is a beautiful place!

Re: How about this place Jeff?

No question in my mind that making the screw flats weakens the metal. I've done a little experimenting with different alloys, first thinking I needed to use harder metals for the valve arms, and have since learned that the "harder" the metal is, the more brittle it is, which is only natural. I tried some harder metals that just bending it much snapped it. For this reason, I've thought the copper was better when bending and flattening it because being softer, it isn't as fragile. But I know very little about metals.

I can't agree with you on the hairpin springs, Jeff. I know much more knowledgeable builders than me use them, but to me they're harder install, harder to adjust, and more prone to breakage. As far as feel, I've found more difference in axle placement than the type spring. My goal is a snappy button without a heavy tension.

Angle of the dangle

I have owned at least 20 Hohners.. many dating pre war and currently own 3 from the 50's..
Never, not once, have I ever broken a hairpin spring.

Castagnaris use hairpins... I hvae never heard of a Castagnari busting a spring.

Another solution to the wire breaking situation is to lower the angle, hence the length and the flex which is what leads to the failure.

Re: Angle of the dangle

I've replaced some broken Hohner springs. I've learned that how a spring is bent makes a difference in it's lasting ability, along with the quality of the metal itself. Actually, there's a lot I'm still learning.

What is it you don't like about the coil springs? I haven't seen any problems with them, and they sure are easy to adjust.

Re: Angle of the dangle

Hokey little nails. The feel,and the sound of the springs.

Aesthetics that require the fingerboard to "stand off" the table.

This can be gotten around by re design.

Re: Angle of the dangle

I, too, have taken a long look at the Sterling/Monarch paradigm which represents the basis of today's Cajun accordion design. After all, it's generally unchanged over 185 years. By adding a few structural and aesthethic tweaks, adding a few more buttons, and improving the aerodynamics, finish, and sound, here's what I've got:


Re: Angle of the dangle

-LLL- Jeff, when are you going to make some accordions? You have a strong sense of how they should be. I think you should get into production. Not being a wise guy here, I'm serious.

Re: Angle of the dangle

I have been designing, re designing, building components, and generally messing about with the single row for a number of years. New style fingerboards, bass boxes, straps , flapper and actuating mechanisms and pallets and well top secret stuff.

Not known to most of the folks here, I was on the verge of production 3 years ago when I was diagnosed with throat cancer. I dont't smoke,chew, do drugs and at that time had not had so much as a beer for ten years . I sold the majority of my bellows, reeds etc to another forumite and spent the time in treatment and recovery and no clear idea of the future.

This was a life changing event.
I also sold 12 accordeons indcluding 5 Castagnaris as prognosis was "you've got six months, time to get your affairs in order"
I also sold 14 guitars and 2 mandolins and 2 banjos... many of which are rare and unobtainable .. ie not replaceable.
I also sold my 60K mile Intl Model 1010 Custom pickup with 60K miles and my 1974 M-B 450 SL roadster with 63 K miles...
I beat the odds and sadly,(as I blew everything out to spare my wife the tedium of unloading my life's hoarding) and yet welcomed...as of three weeks ago.. cancer free. Three years Dec 17.

I may get back to building.

Meantime I will continue to observe and comment about archaic and crude and disrespectful building design, materials and workmanship as in
butted joints and fixed reed blocks and overly wide bass straps, and hokey nails and coil springs and cheap picture frame hangers for straps and cookie cutter metal corners and all the BS about bincis and unnecessarily over sized boxes and accordeons made by others and branded by famous people and bad mouthing THE standard of 1 rows.. The Hohner HA 114.

No joke.. I have enough wood to build 500 accordeons.. reeds and bellows and hardware available anytime from a number of sources in Italy and Britain at modest prices, as well as the US.

So little time, so many interests.

Re: Angle of the dangle

Not a joke , I owned the identical box in purple with red white and blue bellows and a case with a green fuzz liner.

I sent it to the well known player/builder/repairman and seller of accordeons in Wales.. Rees Wesson. He plays it at "sympathetic" events.

PS Check's in the mail for 25 cents for using "paradigm"... even though Sterling and Monarch were not in biz until the 20th Century, not 1829 when an Armenian immigrant to (Bohemia) Austria "invented" the 10 button accordeon (bisonoric, diatonic, aerophone) the mother of all 1 row 10 button accordeons to follow and every other bellows/reed instrument thereafter.

Around the barn

Thought you might enjoy seeing the keyboard of one of the local musicians.
He brought the accordion to me for a complete overhaul a few years back and this is what the keyboard looked like when he gave it to me.

Copper wires, steel wires, aluminum wires, gobs of epoxy, you name it.
BTW, this was an old Marc Savoy accordion that originally had copper alloy wires.



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