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Allons a lafayette original

As far as I understand the standard way to play Lafayette is in third posistion. Well I've been trying to pick out the original Joe and Cleoma tune and it sounds distinctly different to me, I'm certain its in C. Was Joe Falcon playing it on an F accordion or is his version in first posistion?
The modern versions don't sound half as bouncy as Falcon's. Has anyone else noticed such a difference between the original and modern versions? Please (wood)shed some light.

Re: Allons a lafayette original

AJ, he's playing in G, second position on a C accordion. It is often played in C on a C box, 1st position, usually referred to in recordings as "Lafayette Two Step".

Re: Allons a lafayette original

Allons À Lafayette is commonly played in either the 1st or 2nd position, not the 3rd. I'm pretty sure it was originally played in 2nd position (G) and then Aldus Roger came around and recorded it in C (1st position).

But I just listened to Joe Falcon's "Live at the Triangle Club", and on that recording, the tune is done in Gb. I don't know if this has something to do with recording lowering the key a 1/2 step or if Joe was playing on a B natural accordion (Cb). Either way, Joe played the tune in the 1st position.

But the tune is kind of tricky in this regard, even though the tune might be in the key of G, after just a few intro notes the song goes to the C chord (which uses a lot of push notes) and has a 1st position feel. And when playing the tune in C, after the intro, it goes right to the F chord and gives it that 3rd position feel.

Re: Allons a lafayette original

You really can't go by these old recordings, most seem "off" key a little, some more than others.

Re: Allons a lafayette original

Jon Melancon
Allons À Lafayette is commonly played in either the 1st or 2nd position, not the 3rd. I'm pretty sure it was originally played in 2nd position (G) and then Aldus Roger came around and recorded it in C (1st position).

But I just listened to Joe Falcon's "Live at the Triangle Club", and on that recording, the tune is done in Gb. I don't know if this has something to do with recording lowering the key a 1/2 step or if Joe was playing on a B natural accordion (Cb). Either way, Joe played the tune in the 1st position.

But the tune is kind of tricky in this regard, even though the tune might be in the key of G, after just a few intro notes the song goes to the C chord (which uses a lot of push notes) and has a 1st position feel. And when playing the tune in C, after the intro, it goes right to the F chord and gives it that 3rd position feel.


Thanks, that explains why I've been confused with it.
The other one I'm having trouble with is Grand Texas, this has a similar 3rd position feel, I've got this one down as a 1st posistion tune- am I right on that? I'd be very pleased if you could clear that one up for me too as I'm planning to play it with some other musicians.

Cheers

Re: Allons a lafayette original

I don't know about Grand Texas. I've just kind of considered it a fiddle tune and never even attempted this song.

Re: Allons a lafayette original

AJ,

On a C box, you can do the following:

you can play "Grand Texas" in Key of Fmaj by starting with a pull on # 8.
You just can't use the bass side when you do this.
Well, you can use it but it will sound really bad.
Let you guitar player carry the rhythm here.
This is an easy Key to sing the song in.
You can call this third position if you want to, but why use additional confusing terminology.
Key of F.

You can play "Grand Texas" in Key of Cmaj by starting with a push on # 3.
You can use your bass side and you can play easier in octaves here, if like me, you are doubles challenged.
Again, this could be called first position, but let's keep it simple.
Key of C.
I tell myself daily, K-I-S-S.

You can play "Grand Texas" on Key of G by starting with a push on # 5,
but when you need to play the F# at # 8, there ain't one on a C accordion, so you get a kind of off-key bluesy sound, which you may like, or not.
The fiddle player will clash with you, I guarantee.
Not the best key to sing in either. Second position or just plain ole' G.

If I'm wrong on any of this, someone please correct me.
With the exception of doug or randy4u. Just kidding.

JB



Re: Allons a lafayette original

Merci beaucoup JB, think I'll stick to 1st on Grand Texas- thats what I've learnt it in. Just had to check with y'all that I was doin it right!
The only reason I talk about positions is cus I play a D box too so it saves having to talk about all the different keys.
I actually prefer doing Grand Texas in D- it isn't too bad to sing and just about right for my limited vocab! I tend to throw in a verse of Jambalaya towards the end to show the connection.

Re: Allons a lafayette original

I think the 1st, 2nd, 3rd position terminology is pretty helpful and not confusing at all. Keys change with the tuning of the accordion but the positions remains the same. Scott Playboy Special is played 3rd position, whether it be in the Key of F on a C box or key of G on a D box. If you think well, I can play Scott Playboy Special in G on a D box so let me do the song in G on a C box. Should sound the same right? No, not really. What gives that song its uniqueness is the runs of notes that come from playing in 3rd position.

Just like with the numbering system for scales and chord progressions it helps to keep things a little more consistent regardless of the key.

For example, the tune Flames D'Enfer is in the 2nd position, 1 and 5 chord progression. That stays consistent no matter what the key. Easier than saying, well its G/D on a C accordion, A/E on a D accordion and F/C on a Bb accordion. You could just say, the tune is 2nd position 1 & 5 and that works no matter what the accordion is tuned to.

Re: Allons a lafayette original

"Should sound the same right? No, not really. What gives that song its uniqueness is the runs of notes that come from playing in 3rd position."

This is very apparent in the song "Donnez-Moi, Les" (Marc Savoy, Joe Bonsall), where he switches keys, same song, but definitely with a different feel and sound.

My favorite position to play "Scott Playboy" is in 1st, which is usually called either "Old Crowley Two Step" or "Old Crowley Two Step". I like having the bass.

Re: Allons a lafayette original

Talking of "Donnez moi les" the one I like for a key change is "Petite ou le gros", have by no means got it down to a fine art yet.
Anyway- I should be pluggin on with "Chanson de Mardi gras", God knows what position I'm doing that one in!

Re: Allons a lafayette original

I understand what you mean Jon, and it makes sense. Only the numbering of the positions is still a mystery to me.
When you play in Dm on a C-box, you call that that fourth position?
And in Am? is that 5th? Or the other way round? And why?

I have played one Cajun (F on a C box)and two a few Irish tunes (G on a D-box) in the "third" position, and what strikes me is this:
- it's a hard job. Everything is upside down/ the other way round
- you can NOT use the basses otherwise you create a havoc
- the fourth note in the scale is a half higher than normal (the Lydian scale) and has to be skipped most of the time
- the good thing: you have to push and pull a lot more than in 1st position, which gives a lot of swing to your playing.

Re: Allons a lafayette original

1st, 2nd and 3rd positions are practical since most songs are played in either 1st or 2nd position. A few are played in 3rd. Considering a C box, a VERY rare number of songs are played in Am or Dm. These keys just aren't very practical to play in because the notes available are so limited that its not practical to give them a position number.

And yes those are very good observations in regards to playing in the 3rd position.

Re: Allons a lafayette original

Its whats known as the "modes". I think 3rd position is the "Dorian" mode.
Back in the days before chromatic instruments musicians used these modes to play tunes in certain scales, I think it comes from the greek.
I remember Chris Miller posting a version of "Greensleeves" which illustrates medaevil modal playing really well, its a really good exercise.
Please bear in mind that what I've said might be a load of old swamp water, I just get snippets of music theory but never take it in enough to interfere with my playing.

Re: Allons a lafayette original

The position numbers that we refer to on an accordion are not based on modal positions of scales. That's something altogether different.

I'm not sure if the 3rd position is actually a different mode. You are still playing a major scale (Ionian mode) using the 1 (which would be F in the 3rd position of a C accordion). Someone like Larry English or Ganey could maybe enlighten us.

Re: Allons a lafayette original

Can somebody SIMPLY explain to us newer guyswhat the flyin' crap those 1rst, 2nd, positions are? What do they mean with respect to the 10 buttons?
Thanks...I hope.

Re: Allons a lafayette original

Tim

It's kinda like lettin' an Englishman explain the rules of cricket to an American.

Such as, when you go down, you go up, and when you go up, you go down.
Position 1 usually starts at button # 3, which is up, but down.
Position 2 usually starts at button # 5, which is neither up or down, but in the middle.
Position 3 usually starts at button # 8, which is down, but up.

Simple, right.

JB

Re: Allons a lafayette original

JB, Compared to this explanation you sound like it's quite easy ...



-Nout

Re: Allons a lafayette original



If it hasn't embedded, youtube- "mr B straight outta surrey"

Re: Allons a lafayette original

tim comeau
Can somebody SIMPLY explain to us newer guyswhat the flyin' crap those 1rst, 2nd, positions are? What do they mean with respect to the 10 buttons?
Thanks...I hope.


When trying to SIMPLY explain music, its not always easy or possible. Often times something does not become simple until after the concept is understood and upon reflection one wonders why it was ever so difficult to understand in the first place. But I'll try.

A "C" accordion is tuned to the key of C, a "D" accordion is tuned to the key of D, and so on...

Playing in the key that the accordion is tuned to is the primary key that accordion is designed to be played in. So for a C accordion the primary key that accordion is designed to be played in, is in the key of C. Each button is tuned to the C major scale, and every note of the C major scale is available. VOILA! the 1st position. The 1st position is simply playing in the key that the accordion is tuned to. 1st position is the most commonly used position. This primary key is the only key on the accordion which has a full tonal range. And the bass side matches perfectly! The rest will be lacking to some degree.

There is a secondary key that matches up well with the primary key. This secondary key is based on the 5th note of the primary scale that the accordion is tuned to. On an accordion tuned to C, that secondary key would be the 5th note of the C major scale. Take your accordion out, start on the C note, walk up the scale till you hit the 5th note. This 5th note of the C major scale is a "G". Playing in this secondary key is playing the... wait for it......BAM! 2nd position. And this position is the 2nd most used position after the 1st position. Bass side does not really match that well but its do-able.


After those two positions things get much harder. The 3rd position is based off of the 4th note of the primary scale that the accordion is tuned to. Less notes are available, its harder to play in and that's why not that many songs are recorded in 3rd position and the subsequent positions that follow.

If you are looking for more, Ann Savoy discusses these positions on page 1 and 2 of her book "Cajun Music A Reflection of a People".



Jamey Hall's most excellent Cajun Accordion Music Theory

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