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CAJUN ACCORDION DISCUSSION GROUP

 

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Re: Differences

Nedro..

A "wet tuned" Castagnari still is not "just" or "Cajun" tuned.

The Castagnari is a totally different internally than the early German and Czech/Austrian/Saxon boxes.. Much more refined and the workmanship is near perfection.

Loud is only good to drown out fiddles.. and not the goal of Castagnari.

Their goal is tone, playability, excellence in workmanship..
And they are loud.. depends on how you play them.

The button height on most Cajun made boxes is absurd.. not unlike high action at the 12th on a guitar.. Impedes playing.

Lower the button height, that does not take genius, just repsect for the player.

And the travel is ridiculous.
A slight depression on a Castagnari fully opens the flappers.

You have to dive bomb a Cajun made accordion to do the same.

I suspect that most who have read my posts have not seen , in the flesh, or played a Castagnari, a Beltuna, a Kincora, a Melodie, a Messervier, a Clement Breton etc.

After you have, then come back and let's talk.

And while were at it.. no Euro, Italian, English, Quebec, Welsh, French, Norwegian, Finnish,Swedish,Belgian,Dutch,Irish box maker/accordeon maker uses butt joints.

Some respectful Cajun builders do step up the level of design and workmanship and offer something closer to a professional musical instrument than what some posters have referred to as rustic or crude.

A Castagnari or Beltuna is less money that the "top" Cajun accordeon makers charge. The difference in quality is noticeable on first glance and first few notes.

And as to suggesting to a Cajun builder, should I order another, that I want mitered joints, no cheezy metal stamped out corners .. I should expect to be tossed out on my ear ? Absurd. This is elemental, every day, average accordeon specifications in the rest of the world.

Should we denigrate and mock the few Cajun builders who do make an attempt at excellence, and miter corners, and shorten travel, and make their own metal corners ? How about a simple thumb groove to get rid of the hand movement, travel restricting thumb strap.?

Re: Marc Savoy

You CAN tune a Castagnari melodeon with Cajun just tuning to play Cajun music. It isn't
a "Cajun accordion" only because it wasn't hand built by a Cajun.

Re: Martin/Savoy/Castagnari

Ha Randy, I see you also had a run in with Marc's point of view on things. Welcome to the club. But I too would be very opinionated and brash if I had all kinds of novice accordion players coming to me for advice and wanting me to build accordion the way they wanted as opposed to the way I wanted to build them and charge high prices for.

Re: Martin/Savoy/Castagnari

I have an Acadian. Its not as good as some Martins. Its also not as good as some other Acadians. It doesn't really matter to me because if you can really play, you can do it on a Hohner if you have to. I think your comparison to Harleys is the best part of your analysis, because it doesn't matter what works better or is better workmanship. People who like Harleys prefer them for reasons that have nothing to do with that and when they get it, it serves them to their liking. The step up in playability and tone, etc that you speak of might be there, but I've never met anyone that plays Cajun accordion who needs that to play Cajun music. Also Cajun culture is a proud culture. If they can get the job done with their own tools, why not?

When you detour into commenting on someone's personality, you appear biased. Everyone in my neighborhood gets along with my next door neighbor, but we just don't jive. It must be him right? I have met Marc and spoken to him on the phone. First time I ever called there he answered the phone and we talked for 15 min. All amazing, cordial, and polite conversations. I don't know you though, and I have never met any of the people on this forum who see fit to trash people on the internet based on their personal encounters, but knowing that Marc has met many people over the years maybe he has a good a-hole detector. Maybe its you.
Hey, Just my opinion.

Re: Martin/Savoy/Castagnari

"A good A-hole detector". Now that hit home! I know for a fact that if you challenge Marc with a complaint (he is hard to complain to because it's like complaining to the KING), or you begin to ask him questions that delve a little deeper into accordion playing and building, you will be met with what seems like dismissal or brashness. Especially if you're not sure how to explain what's on your mind because of it being taboo, or you are exploring that which must not be spoken of. I brought up a problem to Marc about my Acadian in that something wasn't right and I wanted a different sound. The feel was awesome, but the sound was off. I got the third degree because of it. It ended up being a reed problem. Those dam Benci reeds and also 3 different Cajun accordion makers not wanting to tune them the way accordions sounded when the old music was played(not possible with Benci). I solved the problem with German Hohner 114 reeds. So, I have an Acadian with 15 cent wet tuned Hohner reeds in it. I wouldn't dare bring it to the Savoy Jam! This accordion will make you cry when the right songs are played the old way. When I play it publically, the attention its sound brings is very noticeable. It's like an angel stepping into the room. But it cost me a lot to figure this out and took lots of time and aggreavation of dealing with slacked jawed builders. Yeah, the experience of dealing with incompetence and or hard headedness on all our parts sort of turned me into an A-HOLE of sorts. Andre Michot changed all that and did an awesome job on my Acadian. Very understanding fellow, and willing to try and give you what you want in an accordion. That's because he is a genuine fan of the old ways of accordion playing, and he practices those old ways faithfully.

Re: Martin/Savoy/Castagnari

thanks for the accordion education to all who contributed. another tid-bit of accordion knowledge.


Re: Martin/Savoy/Castagnari

A hole detector..That would mean that the number of people who have commented here, and elsewhere, over the years about Savoy's bad disposition are all A'holes?

The guy is a jerk. not just to me but to a few people I know who have encountered Savoy and have enjoyed his bad behavior without provocation.

When I first spoke to Savoy many years ago, he was polite for about 1 minute and then I asked him a question about "Cajun" tuning knowing hi9s tuning is not what other Cajuns do.. he does less.... and said no one would know the difference... I said, I could hear it.. that is when he turned. How would I know the difference and to ask the question had I not heard it.. I wanted to order an E flat accordion. He said he didn't make them.. As we know, he later did , in fact, make them.
Don,
Absolutely correct.. what makes a Cajun accordion a Cajun accordeon.. made by a Cajun.

As to Gilles, he is playing a box made by Eric Martin. He is not a Cajun.. ergo.. not a Cajun box. They do have lay down and stand up reeds.
Lay down reeds with a stand up reed block is not a Cajun invention.. it is a very very old design. Eric Martin plays Cajun music and has a band.. plays all over France and Europe.

He was playing a Melodie from Quebec originally made by Ouellet and now made by his brother in law, Sylvain Vezina.. ( not to be trusted). I had a very disagreeable event with him. Never again.. built my box and sold it at an annual accordeon event in Montmagny Quebec.. after I had waited 10 months for a box promised in 4.. there's more to the story.. never again. I t took 13 months to resolve.. and he had my money up front. Cost me over $300 not to own the accordeon.

He makes a slanted reed block... the boxes play well but are rather quiet. He makes his own bellows. And none of those metal corners. Excellent workmanship.

The Cajuns copied boxes made in Germany, Saxony, Bohemia and Austria all originally invented by Cyril (sp) Damien in 1829 .. a Romanian immigrant to Austria.

Yes, the Castagnari can be tuned "Cajun" by a Cajun or just tuning by a competent tuner... but the box is built and designed to be an accordeon, not a Cajun accordion.

Cajun accordeons are accordeons just as are Quebec, French, Italian, Czech, German, Welsh, Irish etc made 10 key 2 bass bellows driven bisonric, diatonic aerophones.

The one row boxes are called Melodeons in England, sometimes in Italy as Castagnari's model is called "Melodeon".. They are also called accordeons, akkordeons, fisharmonicas ,harmonikas, accordions, accordians etc...

The Cajun (built) box is an accordion, and some would say a melodeon. It is not a Cajun invention. It is a copy made by a Cajun. Made by a Cajun makes it a Cajun accordeojn.

Beltuna makes a one row box they call " The Cajun" accordion.. it is not. It was built in Italy.. therefore cannot be a Cajun box. They are excellent accordeons, just not "Cajun"

As to the video clips, simply to show the playability and tone from a Castagnari "Melodeon" sometimes known as the "MAX" which was a moniker given to the by Hobgoblin Music in England.

Hohner reeds.. Old Hohner reeds can be very good, and when properly tuned ( not Hohner's "almost" tuning) can sound quite good... They sound very good in a handmade box such as those from Rees Wesson" of Wales..
Look up Wesson accordeons.

I think it quite humerous when an Italian or other Euro company makes an accordion and calls it a Cajun accordeon when they are actually making copies of the original design. And I think it is an insult to the Cajuns.. as the boxes are not made by Cajuns.. Example from Gabbanelli.. the "Cajun King" that is anything but a Cajun accordeon and a cheap rendition of a one row marketed as something else.. kinda like what Polverini did a few years back.


Note that when the first "Cajun" box was made, they were often copies of Hohners or used Hohner components including reeds. I still think their keyboard action (other than the diving buttons and clacking ) are excellent.
As mentioned earlier, Shine Mouton made accordeons with Hohner sliders and reeds. Rees Wesson has used Hohner reeds.

Bincis , alone, do not a good accordion make. Many box makers use other reeds.

I have owned a few Binci reeded boxes, some good , such as Clement Breton, some not so good.. famous name builder.. name withheld.
Some sneaky makers have used Binci #2s...

A good dural reed, properly mounted and tuned or "tipo a mano" reeds can be excellent. Currently the Czechs (part of my heritage) are making excellent reeds, and many of them are finding their way to Norway, England, USA and even Italy. Some Italian reeds are being made in Eastern Europe and stamped with famous names.

Best one row box I have ever played was made in France. Nothing like a "melodeon" or a Cajun box.. He no longer makes them, now making 2, 2 1/2 and 3 row boxes and backed up by years. Another fine maker is Bergflodt in Norway.. legendary, ( modern legend, and deservedly so ) one row and 2 row maker.

As the Brits say " horses for courses". The right box for the right reason.
Were I to play more Cajun music than I am, I would bag my excellent HA 114 (1950s) and get another Cajun made accordeon, and you are well aware of my choices.

Greezy McG..

" But I too would be very opinionated and brash if I had all kinds of novice accordion players coming to me for advice and wanting me to build accordion the way they wanted as opposed to the way I wanted to build them and charge high prices for"

That's is presumptive. When Savoy turned tail on an admiring fan at the Britt Festival in Jacksonville Oregon who just bought 2 CDs and asked for and got an autograph.. Savoy was a jerk because the guy asked for an accordion to be built his way an not Savoy's way..? Didn't happen.

Or my Quebec fiddler friend and his wife who went all the way to LA to talk with Savoy about a box, and had no idea, or intention, of dictating how a box should be built..were snubbed by Savoy.

Keep in mind, many years back, a famous box player froom Quebec had a phone conversation with Savoy about building a box. Savoy asked the guy to play over the phone and said that's what he wanted a box to sound like.. Savoy suggested that the playing was not one accordeon.. As the rest of the story goes, Savoy wanted the player to come to La.. The player said, no. Savoy went to Quebec.. and after that, his boxes(and his playing) improved. This is a matter of record.

Many Quebec players use Savoy boxes and have them rediddled and retuned by Quebec box techs. One such player is the now famous Denis Pepin. But now there are many fine Quebec builders.. Messervier among the best and there are a few dozen others..

Re: Martin/Savoy/Castagnari

@ Jeff H. Can't argue with anything you said. Sounds good to me. I know Marc was impressed with the Canadian players. He spoke well of them and offered some local Cajun players to listen to their music. As for me, I couldn't quite cozy up to the speed and style. After all, I'm one o dem closed minded Cadjins dat play jus Cajun Style. I couldn't play nor want to play any other national style if I wanted to.

Absolutely correct, the accordion or melodeon is not Cajun first by any means. We just made the music coming from those accordions more attractive and successful than any other nationality at any time in history. Well, our old Cajun Masters did. Us modern day Cajun players can't hold a candle up to what those old men could do. We can sometimes play faster and supposedly more difficult licks than they did, but our overall presentation sucks to high heaven compared to what they were able to accomplish. But I could be biased in my opinion due to being a Cajun that don't listen to anything but Old Cajun Music, Classic American Country, and Old time Deep South Blues.

Re: Martin/Savoy/Castagnari

Once upon a time a good fellow went to Selmer factory for a saxophone, then told them their sax were wrong because he wanted to play piano music and wanted the sax to act, play and sound like a piano, as he insisted, they said why don't you go to the right music shop instead of wanting us make what we do not ?
He then leaved very angry because he didn't manage Selmer to agree his point of view that a sax should sound like a piano.
After that he told Jordi Savall and Harnoncourt that their way of playing baroque music with historical instruments was wrong because modern romantic instruments were far better, played quicker, had better vibrato (that no one cares in baroque music), were builded more modern and delicate way then the harsh direct sound of ancient ones, and as he did'nt understand that it could be a special choice of musical interpretation, he leaved very angry and disapointed.
He kept ranting into forum threads, crying about how rude and impolite these guys were, involving their very name.

I sincerely hope my good fellow won't chose accordion for his next experiments,
he for sure would intrusively ask some wellkown brand to ....
Oup's ! He did !

Good fellow, please keep on telling us your truth about accordions, maybe we will see our differences of view, accept them or maybe could eventually learn something from each other,
but please stop insulting namely someone not present here in this thread with whom you had personnal grief.
Call it Web-Ethics for example.
This is simply what's creates agressive answers that you will complain about !

Re: Martin/Savoy/Castagnari

Christophe..
I am confused.. are you referring to me and my observations and comments about Marc Savoy?

He is universally known as an arrogant, impolite, and rude man. Many have experienced this. I am not alone, others have posted the same thing here. Who are you singling out.. me ? Why?

These are facts.. and my experience tells me that facts, and observations have no place on discussion groups. Must uphold myths and "heroes".

There are better accordeons than Savoy accordeons and there are many more polite and friendly Cajuns; he , to me, does not represent the Cajuns I have met nor their culture. His accordeons are average, nothing special.

He is an excellent accordion player.


Additionally:


".....Cajun style accordion..._"

Referring to Gilles.

A "Cajun Style Accordeon" is a copy of European made accordeons..
see previous posts.

Re: Martin/Savoy/Castagnari

That last line should have read..

A "Cajun Style Accordeon" is a copy of European made accordeons, but made by a Cajun.

See previous posts.

I do not want a piano sax or a sax piano. Irrelevant nonsense.

I have stated simply that Cajun accordeons are intended for Cajun style play and other accordeons are made for another style of play.

I very clearly have stated that many times.. though I have also mentioned that Quebec players, Brits, Irish and others have Cajun made accordeons and play them, often after they have been diddled by their own box techs.

I have also clearly stated that many accordeons, Quebec, French, Italian, English, and Irish made one rows seem to be of a higher standard of workmanship, and in many cases material and design, that I personally find superior to the majority of Cajun made instruments.

This is not unlike saying that Mercedes Benz vehicles are superior to Fords.
Ford makes the best Fords, Mercedes (without Chrysler's interference) makes the best Mercedes.

Your experience, or lack of same, or opinion, may vary.

The original post was simply my opinion of the comparision of a MArtin to a Savoy and a Savoy and Martin to a Castagnari.. and my friend's impression.. he a box player and professional musician and owner of two Cajun made accordeons..

We both preferred the Martin over the Savoy and the Castagnari over either of those.

Simple.



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