There's a lot of folk get caught up in a 'position'. Who even ever heard of accordion players and 'positions'. Would those old timers even know what you mean. Heck - I'm talking Greezy to Mr. Greezy. Sweet.

LOL, Mr Guy. You're exactly right...I think. The ole timers didn't know this to well. Shirley Bergeron knew it though, and he knew it well. And maybe a few others too, but not many.

Here's the kicker fellas. Once you learn the 3rd position on your "D" accordion. Take it to your "C" accordion and do it. After a while, start switching back and forth on your "C" accordion between the 2nd and 3rd position. Play a song in 3rd, then stop and play it in that easy 2nd position. But do it following Iry Lejeune songs! Hopefully you will start to see, hear, and FEEL it, and unlock the next level of accordion playing. If you can play in the 3rd position well enough and be able to do it at will, your 2nd position playing will improve dramatically. You're rhythm and timing will improve in a way that gives you goose bumps and you're going to say "Gat Dammit, why haven't I been practicing this all along?!. Because you weren't made aware of it that's why! "What you choose to pay attention to, you become aware of....always and in everyway. More and more everyday, until you recognize the patterns, which brings knowing and peace of mind." Greezy McGill

John A, a video of this would only serve to twist your brain and confuse your senses and reveal too much to your senses and too much of me for my own comfort. But I will give you this for the frame of your picture. To start a 3rd position song.....you hit the #3 button (on the pull) just a short press, and you instantly jump your fingers down to a doubles press (on the pull) pressing and holding buttons 4 and 8. Do it on any accordion, but I'd recommend it on your "C" to try to get familiar with that sound. It sets your mind and ear to play in "F" after a while of getting to know it. Think of the way you start a "G" song on your "C" accordion. A quick press of button 4 (on the push), then instantly jump your fingers down to a doubles press and hold of 5 and 8. The ole timers knew that "G" chord well. In fact, my mentors couldn't show me any other position starter except for this 2nd position "G" chord combination. Poor ole fellas. But hey, they had me to come later and learn what they couldn't. And the Bravenet has pushed me, and now those of you that choose, to farther the knowledge.

Bryan and Mel, from your comments, it looks like you're on the right track.

And that, Jerry Moody, all came about from the creation of the "Accordion Master's Riff". THE BLUE MAX Special. (Name Pending) A riff that would.......
Excerpt below taken from a prior post called "The Greatest Accordion Riff of all Time."
"I have developed and wish to share with all of you, a sequence or scale of button presses both on the push and pull of the Cajun accordion that will ensure even the newest beginner, both Cajun and non Cajun player, fast and efficient success when it comes to the Cajun accordion method and mastery of nearly every song of the Cajun repertoire. It has taken me years of study and watching and intimate interaction with some of the most well known living masters of recent times which have unfortunately passed on over the years. I have feverishly studied the old original standards, lost recordings, and even the newer methods of some of the biggest names on the Cajun music accordion scene. My goal was to be able to physically show, then turn around and teach any beginner accordion player this practice sequence in one hour's time. One hour's time which would result in a lifetime of benefit and mastery of the accordion in 1/3 of the time it takes the typical young player to learn the licks, blends, and trills of the masters. This sequence would also familiarize the new accordion player with the playing positions of 1,2, and 3 on any key accordion. It would have them using all 10 buttons on the key board within one hour! It is to be applied before any Cajun song is ever even attempted. It will ensure muscle memory of every chord, octave, blend, and trill available on the 10 button diatonic Cajun accordion. It will familiarize the student with the location and sound of many unknown and secreted, or hard to learn licks and when to apply them for every Cajun song. This accordion instruction riff will enable every student to play slightly different melodies and bridges at the top, middle, and bottom of his or her accordion at different pitches in order to keep the song interesting and not repetitive to the point of nausea. I have tested it on one student and the results are to say the least remarkable! I will ponder on the actual presentation on video of this practice riff for more time so as to become certain that it is absolutely correct and learnable by even the most dim witted accordion player. I must be absolutely sure of this method and of myself because it is something that has not been done so far in history. Seems that no one ever had the ambition, knowledge, need to, nor method of how to release it to the world. Well that monkey business is now at an end. I will make sure no Cajun accordion player ever again begins his or her journey in ignorance and frustration."

That is how "my riff", Jerry, will top everything you ever thought you could do with the accordion and with Cajun music. I wonder if you're able to get that through that thick and crass head of yours.....Check Mate. So now Jerry...if you can't beat em, join em. Or find yourself and your legacy left behind to continue to fight with the mediocre. While some of the rest of us go to the freakin stars and back if we want to.

[Trying to reply to the Mary Had a Little Lamb comment, but this keeps showing up in the wrong place in the thread...]

A slightly more satisfying one (to me) that works in all 3 is Oh Susanna. Amazing Grace also takes you a bit further up/down the scale.

I started googling this to come up with some more challenges, but for some of these results (like Camptown Races or Auld Lang Syne), the way I remember them in my head, they contain one or two notes you'd have to skip in some positions:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22list+of+songs+in+major+pentatonic%22&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS702US702&oq=%22list+of+songs+in+major+pentatonic%22&aqs=chrome..69i57.7036j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Seems like a good idea. I like to play mp3s and videos, and getting the intuitive hang of a tune or song by playing along.

Just one question: when you play in G on a D accordion, you get a different scale than when you play G on a C accordion. There's no C note on a D accordion, only a C#. While the C note and chord are Very Important in those "second position" songs in G (on a C accordion). And the F has become an F# on the D accordion.
How do you cope with that? You just skip those notes?

That problem I had yesterday Peer, when I try to play along on a D accordion with Valse de Fruge in G that was played on a C accordeon.
The start was promising, but after a while the problems start because I couldn't find the right notes to get further.
It's good to practice jumping with your fingers over the keyboard
And how about playing the bass side ?
I'm very curious how to solve that
Can't wait

Mel. Playing the bass side for 3rd position songs.... That's a very good question. For some songs it works just fine and you can go right into singing them just as easily as can be! Take "Allons a Lafayette" which is most often played in the 3rd position key of "F" now a days. But it was originally played in the 1st position key of "C". Then someone started to get fancy with it and started playing the melody in 1st position and do the dam turn in the 2nd position in "G". Then, someone came along and found out how to play Allons a Lafayette in the 3rd position key of "F" to beat the rest of the accordion players and show off a lil of their skills. Now, you can hardly find Allons a Lafayette done in the 1st position anymore and beginners and even intermediate accordion players aren't even aware of the original way. But if you play "Allons a Lafayette" for the old Cajun folks the original way, they will point out and say these words, "That's the way it's supposed to be played." "That's the right way!"
Now, you take some other songs and play them in 3rd position, and they don't go well, the bass side is off key, and you can't sing it right. Guess what?? You work harder at it, or you don't play those songs in the 3rd position. LOL. Guess what else. I can play and sing Chere Tout Tout in all 3 positions and make it sound just fine either way, but that sure did take a while to accomplish. My ear, my fingers, and mind had to get attuned to doing such an unheard of thing. But it's possible.

Greezy, this is the perfect opportunity to pierce that veil of secrecy. Many of us, perhaps all, anxiously await the the proof that you can play AND sing Chere Tout Tout in all three keys.


Greezy's Trilogy - Lights! Cameras! ACTION!

Playing in 3rd position is a lot less intuitive for me than the other 2 positions. Just takes practice. Like I mentioned earlier, try taking Mary Had a LIttle Lamb and play it in all three keys. It's simple in each key, and get's you used to finding the fingering of each note.

Base side? Ha, get some extra buttons. Most people quit playing the base side in 3rd position, except those good enough to know where it fits. Some good musicians even quit playing the base some parts of 2nd position songs where it doesn't fit.

Greezy, you may be mistaken about the original Allons A Lafayette, Joe FAlcon recorded it playing in G. A lot of folks play it in 1st postion. The turn kicks my butt in 1st position.

If you want something a bit more Cajun than "Mary Had a Little Lamb," I think "Unlucky Waltz" works well in 3rd position (AKA key of F). It very conveniently skips over the missing 4th note of the scale in both the A part and the turn, and there are a number of nice blend opportunities throughout the tune.

So what are the F tunes that can have the bass side played on?
Sounds weird to me, I don't see how a G chord can sound any good on a F scale.

The only F tune I play so far is the Scott Playboys Special and putting the bass side sounds like s***. So now I just play it in C and it's cool too.

Yeah.

There's missing notes in the third position. You just have to work around it, or just not go there.

As for the bass side, that doesn't work out very well most of the time. I think the best idea is to leave it out.

-David

Hey Cat, you cope with them musical oddities of the 3rd position like any ole timer Cajun player. You play the closest thing you can hunt and peck and find to fit, or you simply don't play that song in "F". When you get good at playing in the 3rd position, you'll know what can be done and what can't and when. But know this, it's the flow and the feel of the 3rd position you're working for. Once you get that flow/feel and it starts to come natural, you can really do a lot of songs in the 3rd position. Just like you got the flow of the 2nd position or the flow of the 1st.

I personally took to the 2nd position naturally when I first started playing. "G" songs on that "C" accordion came naturally. I especially loved them hard hitting 2nd position two steps. Then I became aware of some musicians at the Savoy jam playing in the 1st position a lot of the time, while the musicians I knew from my area weren't so good at doing this 1st position very well or they wouldn't choose normally 1st position songs to play when they played accordion. The Savoy jammers would choose 1st position songs played in the key of "C" often. It was then that I realized that I was a beginner chump, and something was being done on the accordion by these other guys that I had no clue about. They were playing the accordion a different way and it sounded,looked better, and presented more variety than my playing a lot of the time. But no one was volunteering the information or methods to me, and I didn't really know enough about accordion to ask the right question to the right knowing and helpful person or persons that could actually show me what he was doing. It actually got under my skin somewhat. Later on, I saw someone play a 3rd position song and that both surprised me and then ****** ME OFF! It told me that mastery of the accordion was being kept from me by certain individuals for some reason. Whether they were keeping such techniques to themselves for selfish reasons, or they were ignorant advanced players who couldn't teach their way out of a wet paper bag I wasn't sure. Something just wasn't sitting right with this situation.... To make a long story short, I think they were ignorant advanced players breaking out with these techniques to impress people watching them play trying to make a name for themselves as good accordion players. And if you haven't noticed, I have a vendetta against these kinds of players. Not one of them ever offered to explain what they were doing in simple terms that could be thought through and eventually applied by the beginner. Or they wanted to charge $20 dollars an hour or even more for insufficient instruction. They wanted to charge me money for what they got free of charge! That also didn't sit to well with me. Everybody out to make a got dam dollar at the expense of our culture and heritage.

And guess what else??? All you guys,including Jerry, just got a whole lot of 3rd position information for absolutely free. And you didn't have to buy a plane ticket, rent a hotel room, nor pay $720 for a week of instruction from the Balfa Camp. This is the way it should be. All free and completely open and forthcoming. Except for my identity that is. And who in the heck is Peer?

One last thing Braves. There is another dynamic not often thought about that could have also played a big part in the discovery of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd positions of the Cajun accordion. That dynamic was...drum roll.....the Cajun fiddle. Imagine yourself as an accordion player at a get together or a jam session and there are several fiddle players there. Some of these fiddle players are ole timers that have a pretty good handle on playing fiddle, while some are just starting out. You look at them before the song about to be played and you ask them, "What key would you like to play in?" or "Which strings on that fiddle do you want to play on for this song?" "Do you want to be able to drone two strings for the whole song, or play each string separately?" Imagine yourself as an accordion player that could give them exactly what they wanted with either a "C" or a "D" accordion and understood exactly how they had to play them fiddles depending on which position or key you played your accordion with for any song. You would also know which key or position of the accordion produced the best possible sounding song that the accordion and the fiddle could produce together as a team. I can tell you one got dam thing. Those fiddle players sure would like you and would want you to play with them all the time! You'd fit in like sweet peas go with a specklebelly goose pot roast!

G-Mac, I enjoy your posts for sure. I wish folks would stop ******** at each other here. Ruins everything. But a big thanks for your stories and your music stuff. Very cool...

I am with you Tom, completely

You can play all kinds of things in the 3d position, but not Allons a Lafayette, unless you want to end up with a complete different melody line that makes no sense at all!
I tried it, and thought it worked, but then realized that I was playing in the first position (in C). I got messed up because the song/tune starts with an F chord (so-called "subdominant" chord), which is essential for the melody.
Playing the melody in C was not a problem, but personally I prefer the 2nd (in G), because then you can give that C chord more emphasis.

Now if want to you play Lafayette in the 3d position on a C box (in key of F), you need a Bb, which just isn't there, even while it's essential for the song. It even starts with four of those Bb notes in the first measure. (al-lons-a .. -yette, all Bb's)

Same goes for a D-box: in the 3d position (Lafayette in G) you would have to start with several c notes and a C chord, but you only have an C# on your keyboard, and not a C!

Two problems with this approach.

First, and most obvious, many/most of us don't own D accordions, so the notion that we can just play along on our D accordion is a non-starter. If you really think playing along with recorded music is the key, buy Amazing Slow Downer, re-record some 3rd position songs dropped a couple of semitones (i.e., convert them from the key of G to the key of F), and then play along in 3rd position on your C accordion.

But equally important is the fact that most 2nd position tunes don't lend themselves to being played in 3rd position. Why? Because 2 of the 7 notes of the 2nd position scale (the 4th and the flatted 7th) are both missing from the 3rd position scale. So you'll need to find a workaround for any tune that includes either of those two notes, and any tunes in which those notes are really prominent will be essentially unplayable in 3rd position.

Exactly, Bassman! That's what I mean.

Another option would be to get a 2 row 1/2 step B/C box as used by Irish players.

You've got your C row for the naturals and the B row has all the accidentals..

Play in any key.. Some easily, others with some difficulty but the notes are all there.

Wouldn't be Cajun but it's possible.

I will add it is considered one of the most difficult boxes to play.. the learning curve is really steep. I've tried it and it's tough.

I have a hard enough time with the one row.

I guess I have no idea what any of this means (positions, keys). I understand that when you push or pull on a button(s) you get specific notes that give you a tune. The tempo is determined by the accordion player. How important is it to know about 3rd position and where is the 3rd position, what buttons are you pressing, etc? Same questions for 2nd and 1st positions too, where are they? Playing in a key of “G” on a “C” accordion, what does that mean? I have no background in music so I’m asking all of these questions to see if the answers are helpful. I enjoy reading this site whenever I can.
Thanks.

Don, playing in C on a C box is first position and mainly on the push so quite punchy, G is second position and on the pull- more bluesy and notes/chords blend more. A simple and cheap way to define this is by playing a 10 hole harmonica- playing tunes by blowing more will sound straight forward and folky while sucking in more and bending notes will sound more soulful and bluesy. As for the 3rd position which is F well I'm not quite sure how to explain that but it's another scale to learn once you've got your head round the first 2, as is Am and D scales, all useful and diverse for different styles of tunes.

Hey, I think some of youz guys are actually starting to get the picture. The picture of the difficulties with the "3rd" position. They don't call it 3rd position for nothing! The last on the list. The most avoided. Look guys, in my opinion, the 3rd position will always be the "SHOW OFF" position. It is not necessary and it does not have to be learned in order to play Cajun accordion. But I know for sure that it will improve your 1st and 2nd position playing if you occasionally delve into and use the 3rd position. Fiddlers don't like the 3rd position either if you're wondering. A note of interest....Did you know that Walter Mouton played the fiddle 1st before he ever played the accordion? I'm pretty sure that fiddle knowledge gave Walter a pretty good advantage when it came to playing accordion. Hey, Wayne Toups watched Walter Mouton....not the other way around. But Walter likes to hide his secrets. Didn't do a whole lot of direct teaching on purpose. Didn't want to give up that advantage I guess. Well, we know better now.

Bryan, I did make a mistake. Allons a Lafayette was originally played in the first position. But it was never recorded, that I know of, done in the 2nd position. In fact, its very hard to play Allons a Lafayette in the easy second position because our ears don't want to let us play it in that position. Because we've only heard it done in 1st and 3rd. But alas....I worked at it for about 30 minutes and yep, I played it in the 2nd position key of "G" on the "C" accordion. It is possible, but not probable. LOL

Some other "positions" that can be played (using C accordion as example), A minor, D minor, E (check out Lost Bayou Ramblers live J'etais Au Bal version where they modulate to E), but each with missing notes, of course. Maybe some others.

When I got my first accordion, I didn't know about that position stuff, and had no one to watch, so just hunted and pecked out notes. I ended up playing everything I first learned (Jetais au bal and Eunce two step were two) in first position, didn't know about second til I got an instructional video, that opened up a whole new world.

I'm still puzzling on Allons a Lafayette. Something very wrong there! Haven't quite put my finger on it. Working feverishly.

But yes Bryan, I believe we're about to open up a whole new world with this "positions" thing. Or we could walk away from it and never know the better. It would be like some Amish guy and his wife or daughter knowing only the missionary position and then one day they find a TV, a VCR, and one California porno movie in the barn next to the horse's stall with a note taped next to the play button saying, "PRESS PLAY BUTTON". They could either throw the whole thing to the road and follow their traditions of no technology, or they could secretly press that play button and open up a WHOLE NEW WORLD. LOL, they may not understand it completely at first, but hey, if it feels good, they don't have to understand it right? Then 10 years later, their whole way of life is somehow completely destroyed and in disarray just from pressing that got dam "PLAY BUTTON" that day in the barn...

Hey Greezy, I'm up here in Ohio at moment working alongside the Amish and they're great
people with a sense of humor. They have canny ways to get around technology and modern ways like you wouldn't believe- without compromising their principles, joy to have around and I can't fault them.

Hopefully after all these work trips I'll clock up enough air miles to make it to Lafayette!

Dang AJ, way over there in Ohia. I had a roommate from Ohia once. We partied down hard back in those days. Good fellow he was. As for them Amish. They have my complete and total respect. They are the other microcosm in America. They kept to the old ways even more than the Cajuns. And I'm sure they are as crafty as it gets and all the better for it!