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Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position - some comments

So what are the F tunes that can have the bass side played on?
Sounds weird to me, I don't see how a G chord can sound any good on a F scale.

The only F tune I play so far is the Scott Playboys Special and putting the bass side sounds like s***. So now I just play it in C and it's cool too.

Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position - some comments

Yeah.

There's missing notes in the third position. You just have to work around it, or just not go there.

As for the bass side, that doesn't work out very well most of the time. I think the best idea is to leave it out.

-David

Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position - some comments

Hey Cat, you cope with them musical oddities of the 3rd position like any ole timer Cajun player. You play the closest thing you can hunt and peck and find to fit, or you simply don't play that song in "F". When you get good at playing in the 3rd position, you'll know what can be done and what can't and when. But know this, it's the flow and the feel of the 3rd position you're working for. Once you get that flow/feel and it starts to come natural, you can really do a lot of songs in the 3rd position. Just like you got the flow of the 2nd position or the flow of the 1st.

I personally took to the 2nd position naturally when I first started playing. "G" songs on that "C" accordion came naturally. I especially loved them hard hitting 2nd position two steps. Then I became aware of some musicians at the Savoy jam playing in the 1st position a lot of the time, while the musicians I knew from my area weren't so good at doing this 1st position very well or they wouldn't choose normally 1st position songs to play when they played accordion. The Savoy jammers would choose 1st position songs played in the key of "C" often. It was then that I realized that I was a beginner chump, and something was being done on the accordion by these other guys that I had no clue about. They were playing the accordion a different way and it sounded,looked better, and presented more variety than my playing a lot of the time. But no one was volunteering the information or methods to me, and I didn't really know enough about accordion to ask the right question to the right knowing and helpful person or persons that could actually show me what he was doing. It actually got under my skin somewhat. Later on, I saw someone play a 3rd position song and that both surprised me and then ****** ME OFF! It told me that mastery of the accordion was being kept from me by certain individuals for some reason. Whether they were keeping such techniques to themselves for selfish reasons, or they were ignorant advanced players who couldn't teach their way out of a wet paper bag I wasn't sure. Something just wasn't sitting right with this situation.... To make a long story short, I think they were ignorant advanced players breaking out with these techniques to impress people watching them play trying to make a name for themselves as good accordion players. And if you haven't noticed, I have a vendetta against these kinds of players. Not one of them ever offered to explain what they were doing in simple terms that could be thought through and eventually applied by the beginner. Or they wanted to charge $20 dollars an hour or even more for insufficient instruction. They wanted to charge me money for what they got free of charge! That also didn't sit to well with me. Everybody out to make a got dam dollar at the expense of our culture and heritage.

Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position - some comments

And guess what else??? All you guys,including Jerry, just got a whole lot of 3rd position information for absolutely free. And you didn't have to buy a plane ticket, rent a hotel room, nor pay $720 for a week of instruction from the Balfa Camp. This is the way it should be. All free and completely open and forthcoming. Except for my identity that is. And who in the heck is Peer?

Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position - some comments

One last thing Braves. There is another dynamic not often thought about that could have also played a big part in the discovery of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd positions of the Cajun accordion. That dynamic was...drum roll.....the Cajun fiddle. Imagine yourself as an accordion player at a get together or a jam session and there are several fiddle players there. Some of these fiddle players are ole timers that have a pretty good handle on playing fiddle, while some are just starting out. You look at them before the song about to be played and you ask them, "What key would you like to play in?" or "Which strings on that fiddle do you want to play on for this song?" "Do you want to be able to drone two strings for the whole song, or play each string separately?" Imagine yourself as an accordion player that could give them exactly what they wanted with either a "C" or a "D" accordion and understood exactly how they had to play them fiddles depending on which position or key you played your accordion with for any song. You would also know which key or position of the accordion produced the best possible sounding song that the accordion and the fiddle could produce together as a team. I can tell you one got dam thing. Those fiddle players sure would like you and would want you to play with them all the time! You'd fit in like sweet peas go with a specklebelly goose pot roast!

Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position - some comments

G-Mac, I enjoy your posts for sure. I wish folks would stop ******** at each other here. Ruins everything. But a big thanks for your stories and your music stuff. Very cool...

Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position - some comments

I am with you Tom, completely

Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position - some comments

Lafayette in 3d position ?!

You can play all kinds of things in the 3d position, but not Allons a Lafayette, unless you want to end up with a complete different melody line that makes no sense at all!
I tried it, and thought it worked, but then realized that I was playing in the first position (in C). I got messed up because the song/tune starts with an F chord (so-called "subdominant" chord), which is essential for the melody.
Playing the melody in C was not a problem, but personally I prefer the 2nd (in G), because then you can give that C chord more emphasis.

Now if want to you play Lafayette in the 3d position on a C box (in key of F), you need a Bb, which just isn't there, even while it's essential for the song. It even starts with four of those Bb notes in the first measure. (al-lons-a .. -yette, all Bb's)

Same goes for a D-box: in the 3d position (Lafayette in G) you would have to start with several c notes and a C chord, but you only have an C# on your keyboard, and not a C!


Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position

Two problems with this approach.

First, and most obvious, many/most of us don't own D accordions, so the notion that we can just play along on our D accordion is a non-starter. If you really think playing along with recorded music is the key, buy Amazing Slow Downer, re-record some 3rd position songs dropped a couple of semitones (i.e., convert them from the key of G to the key of F), and then play along in 3rd position on your C accordion.

But equally important is the fact that most 2nd position tunes don't lend themselves to being played in 3rd position. Why? Because 2 of the 7 notes of the 2nd position scale (the 4th and the flatted 7th) are both missing from the 3rd position scale. So you'll need to find a workaround for any tune that includes either of those two notes, and any tunes in which those notes are really prominent will be essentially unplayable in 3rd position.

Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position

Exactly, Bassman! That's what I mean.

Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position

Another option would be to get a 2 row 1/2 step B/C box as used by Irish players.

You've got your C row for the naturals and the B row has all the accidentals..

Play in any key.. Some easily, others with some difficulty but the notes are all there.

Wouldn't be Cajun but it's possible.

I will add it is considered one of the most difficult boxes to play.. the learning curve is really steep. I've tried it and it's tough.

I have a hard enough time with the one row.

Illusive 3rd position

I guess I have no idea what any of this means (positions, keys). I understand that when you push or pull on a button(s) you get specific notes that give you a tune. The tempo is determined by the accordion player. How important is it to know about 3rd position and where is the 3rd position, what buttons are you pressing, etc? Same questions for 2nd and 1st positions too, where are they? Playing in a key of “G” on a “C” accordion, what does that mean? I have no background in music so I’m asking all of these questions to see if the answers are helpful. I enjoy reading this site whenever I can.
Thanks.

Re: Illusive 3rd position

Don, playing in C on a C box is first position and mainly on the push so quite punchy, G is second position and on the pull- more bluesy and notes/chords blend more. A simple and cheap way to define this is by playing a 10 hole harmonica- playing tunes by blowing more will sound straight forward and folky while sucking in more and bending notes will sound more soulful and bluesy. As for the 3rd position which is F well I'm not quite sure how to explain that but it's another scale to learn once you've got your head round the first 2, as is Am and D scales, all useful and diverse for different styles of tunes.

Re: Illusive 3rd position

Hey, I think some of youz guys are actually starting to get the picture. The picture of the difficulties with the "3rd" position. They don't call it 3rd position for nothing! The last on the list. The most avoided. Look guys, in my opinion, the 3rd position will always be the "SHOW OFF" position. It is not necessary and it does not have to be learned in order to play Cajun accordion. But I know for sure that it will improve your 1st and 2nd position playing if you occasionally delve into and use the 3rd position. Fiddlers don't like the 3rd position either if you're wondering. A note of interest....Did you know that Walter Mouton played the fiddle 1st before he ever played the accordion? I'm pretty sure that fiddle knowledge gave Walter a pretty good advantage when it came to playing accordion. Hey, Wayne Toups watched Walter Mouton....not the other way around. But Walter likes to hide his secrets. Didn't do a whole lot of direct teaching on purpose. Didn't want to give up that advantage I guess. Well, we know better now.

Bryan, I did make a mistake. Allons a Lafayette was originally played in the first position. But it was never recorded, that I know of, done in the 2nd position. In fact, its very hard to play Allons a Lafayette in the easy second position because our ears don't want to let us play it in that position. Because we've only heard it done in 1st and 3rd. But alas....I worked at it for about 30 minutes and yep, I played it in the 2nd position key of "G" on the "C" accordion. It is possible, but not probable. LOL

Re: Illusive 3rd position

Some other "positions" that can be played (using C accordion as example), A minor, D minor, E (check out Lost Bayou Ramblers live J'etais Au Bal version where they modulate to E), but each with missing notes, of course. Maybe some others.

When I got my first accordion, I didn't know about that position stuff, and had no one to watch, so just hunted and pecked out notes. I ended up playing everything I first learned (Jetais au bal and Eunce two step were two) in first position, didn't know about second til I got an instructional video, that opened up a whole new world.

Re: Illusive 3rd position

I'm still puzzling on Allons a Lafayette. Something very wrong there! Haven't quite put my finger on it. Working feverishly.

But yes Bryan, I believe we're about to open up a whole new world with this "positions" thing. Or we could walk away from it and never know the better. It would be like some Amish guy and his wife or daughter knowing only the missionary position and then one day they find a TV, a VCR, and one California porno movie in the barn next to the horse's stall with a note taped next to the play button saying, "PRESS PLAY BUTTON". They could either throw the whole thing to the road and follow their traditions of no technology, or they could secretly press that play button and open up a WHOLE NEW WORLD. LOL, they may not understand it completely at first, but hey, if it feels good, they don't have to understand it right? Then 10 years later, their whole way of life is somehow completely destroyed and in disarray just from pressing that got dam "PLAY BUTTON" that day in the barn...

Re: Illusive 3rd position

Hey Greezy, I'm up here in Ohio at moment working alongside the Amish and they're great
people with a sense of humor. They have canny ways to get around technology and modern ways like you wouldn't believe- without compromising their principles, joy to have around and I can't fault them.

Hopefully after all these work trips I'll clock up enough air miles to make it to Lafayette!

Re: Illusive 3rd position

Dang AJ, way over there in Ohia. I had a roommate from Ohia once. We partied down hard back in those days. Good fellow he was. As for them Amish. They have my complete and total respect. They are the other microcosm in America. They kept to the old ways even more than the Cajuns. And I'm sure they are as crafty as it gets and all the better for it!



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