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Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position - some comments

I am with you Tom, completely

Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position - some comments

Lafayette in 3d position ?!

You can play all kinds of things in the 3d position, but not Allons a Lafayette, unless you want to end up with a complete different melody line that makes no sense at all!
I tried it, and thought it worked, but then realized that I was playing in the first position (in C). I got messed up because the song/tune starts with an F chord (so-called "subdominant" chord), which is essential for the melody.
Playing the melody in C was not a problem, but personally I prefer the 2nd (in G), because then you can give that C chord more emphasis.

Now if want to you play Lafayette in the 3d position on a C box (in key of F), you need a Bb, which just isn't there, even while it's essential for the song. It even starts with four of those Bb notes in the first measure. (al-lons-a .. -yette, all Bb's)

Same goes for a D-box: in the 3d position (Lafayette in G) you would have to start with several c notes and a C chord, but you only have an C# on your keyboard, and not a C!


Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position

Two problems with this approach.

First, and most obvious, many/most of us don't own D accordions, so the notion that we can just play along on our D accordion is a non-starter. If you really think playing along with recorded music is the key, buy Amazing Slow Downer, re-record some 3rd position songs dropped a couple of semitones (i.e., convert them from the key of G to the key of F), and then play along in 3rd position on your C accordion.

But equally important is the fact that most 2nd position tunes don't lend themselves to being played in 3rd position. Why? Because 2 of the 7 notes of the 2nd position scale (the 4th and the flatted 7th) are both missing from the 3rd position scale. So you'll need to find a workaround for any tune that includes either of those two notes, and any tunes in which those notes are really prominent will be essentially unplayable in 3rd position.

Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position

Exactly, Bassman! That's what I mean.

Re: Learning the Illusive 3rd Position

Another option would be to get a 2 row 1/2 step B/C box as used by Irish players.

You've got your C row for the naturals and the B row has all the accidentals..

Play in any key.. Some easily, others with some difficulty but the notes are all there.

Wouldn't be Cajun but it's possible.

I will add it is considered one of the most difficult boxes to play.. the learning curve is really steep. I've tried it and it's tough.

I have a hard enough time with the one row.

Illusive 3rd position

I guess I have no idea what any of this means (positions, keys). I understand that when you push or pull on a button(s) you get specific notes that give you a tune. The tempo is determined by the accordion player. How important is it to know about 3rd position and where is the 3rd position, what buttons are you pressing, etc? Same questions for 2nd and 1st positions too, where are they? Playing in a key of “G” on a “C” accordion, what does that mean? I have no background in music so I’m asking all of these questions to see if the answers are helpful. I enjoy reading this site whenever I can.
Thanks.

Re: Illusive 3rd position

Don, playing in C on a C box is first position and mainly on the push so quite punchy, G is second position and on the pull- more bluesy and notes/chords blend more. A simple and cheap way to define this is by playing a 10 hole harmonica- playing tunes by blowing more will sound straight forward and folky while sucking in more and bending notes will sound more soulful and bluesy. As for the 3rd position which is F well I'm not quite sure how to explain that but it's another scale to learn once you've got your head round the first 2, as is Am and D scales, all useful and diverse for different styles of tunes.

Re: Illusive 3rd position

Hey, I think some of youz guys are actually starting to get the picture. The picture of the difficulties with the "3rd" position. They don't call it 3rd position for nothing! The last on the list. The most avoided. Look guys, in my opinion, the 3rd position will always be the "SHOW OFF" position. It is not necessary and it does not have to be learned in order to play Cajun accordion. But I know for sure that it will improve your 1st and 2nd position playing if you occasionally delve into and use the 3rd position. Fiddlers don't like the 3rd position either if you're wondering. A note of interest....Did you know that Walter Mouton played the fiddle 1st before he ever played the accordion? I'm pretty sure that fiddle knowledge gave Walter a pretty good advantage when it came to playing accordion. Hey, Wayne Toups watched Walter Mouton....not the other way around. But Walter likes to hide his secrets. Didn't do a whole lot of direct teaching on purpose. Didn't want to give up that advantage I guess. Well, we know better now.

Bryan, I did make a mistake. Allons a Lafayette was originally played in the first position. But it was never recorded, that I know of, done in the 2nd position. In fact, its very hard to play Allons a Lafayette in the easy second position because our ears don't want to let us play it in that position. Because we've only heard it done in 1st and 3rd. But alas....I worked at it for about 30 minutes and yep, I played it in the 2nd position key of "G" on the "C" accordion. It is possible, but not probable. LOL

Re: Illusive 3rd position

Some other "positions" that can be played (using C accordion as example), A minor, D minor, E (check out Lost Bayou Ramblers live J'etais Au Bal version where they modulate to E), but each with missing notes, of course. Maybe some others.

When I got my first accordion, I didn't know about that position stuff, and had no one to watch, so just hunted and pecked out notes. I ended up playing everything I first learned (Jetais au bal and Eunce two step were two) in first position, didn't know about second til I got an instructional video, that opened up a whole new world.

Re: Illusive 3rd position

I'm still puzzling on Allons a Lafayette. Something very wrong there! Haven't quite put my finger on it. Working feverishly.

But yes Bryan, I believe we're about to open up a whole new world with this "positions" thing. Or we could walk away from it and never know the better. It would be like some Amish guy and his wife or daughter knowing only the missionary position and then one day they find a TV, a VCR, and one California porno movie in the barn next to the horse's stall with a note taped next to the play button saying, "PRESS PLAY BUTTON". They could either throw the whole thing to the road and follow their traditions of no technology, or they could secretly press that play button and open up a WHOLE NEW WORLD. LOL, they may not understand it completely at first, but hey, if it feels good, they don't have to understand it right? Then 10 years later, their whole way of life is somehow completely destroyed and in disarray just from pressing that got dam "PLAY BUTTON" that day in the barn...

Re: Illusive 3rd position

Hey Greezy, I'm up here in Ohio at moment working alongside the Amish and they're great
people with a sense of humor. They have canny ways to get around technology and modern ways like you wouldn't believe- without compromising their principles, joy to have around and I can't fault them.

Hopefully after all these work trips I'll clock up enough air miles to make it to Lafayette!

Re: Illusive 3rd position

Dang AJ, way over there in Ohia. I had a roommate from Ohia once. We partied down hard back in those days. Good fellow he was. As for them Amish. They have my complete and total respect. They are the other microcosm in America. They kept to the old ways even more than the Cajuns. And I'm sure they are as crafty as it gets and all the better for it!



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