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Re: % hand-made

Matt
The referense(sp) to handmade,and i hope i'm stating this
right.The building of an accordion is put together by
hand(not factory wise) Mass production.
Single builders make most of their parts except(bellows
reeds,and odd parts which can be purchased(cheaper)than they can make them in some cases,so theres a give and take on some parts,but the majority of the La. accordions are handmade.
See Italy.Germany.Mexico,are not handmade,for the fact
they mass produce their accordions.Not saying that Mr.Mark
in Eunice has a factory,that mass produces,but most of it
is handmade.I know what i just said prolly don't make sinse
but,hope i cleared something on the matter.
The 2nd,,thing,is Tina works for Mark Savoy,,she doesn't make accordions,won't say she doesn't help on some stage,but thats about all i have to say about that part of it..
Hope this helped,,Later Elzie

Re: Re: % hand-made

Junior Martin pretty much had an assembly line going also. However La. build accordions are built by hand by someone.

Re: % hand-made

Being a hand builder of violins and fretted instruments, you pay for the time and variances. Each one is unique though. I stopped building guitars due to the decent quality and cheap price of CNC machined Chinese instruments. Same with fiddles, but I still hand carve them. Small shop operations are the way to go, hand built or otherwise. Mom and Pop are the backbone of this economy. There is no justification for the compensation of CEO's of BIG business.
Lordy, make me shut up!

Peace,
Craig

Re: Re: % hand-made

John Roger had one of those small shops where he worked alone to build the 10 to 12 custom handmade accordions he built each year. Unfortunatly his shop was distroyed but, hopefully he will be able to rebuild. I visited his shop often and can say that it took several days just to apply the 18 coats of finish he used on his instrumens. As a luther this is something you are probably fimilar with. That kind of attention to detail takes time which some people don't appreciate or are willing to pay for.

Re: % hand-made

Matt and all,

The accordions are still all mostly handmade, but there is more sharing and cooperation among builders now...there is a network available now that was not available to the early builders like Sidney Brown, Shine Mouton, Charlie Ortego and Mark Savoy.

I can't speak for every builder out there, but there are some parts that some builders are ordering now rather than making themselves. Things such as the wood pull on the stops (some builders buy some type of piece from a furniture catalog and saw it in half to form the stop pulls), metal corners (I think Larry Miller cuts/stamps out the corners and builders are able to buy them. I would be guessing on anything else...maybe the wire for the flappers, buttons, etc Years ago I used to watch Mr. Charlie make the wires (actually beat them on an anvil into the desired shape and them beat them on another pattern for the design near the screws.) Also watched him use the lathe for the stop pulls...all by sight and by hand...no jigs...as a result they are not 'perfect' but they still look great. They also are not uniform from box to box, he tried slightly different things throughout the years. Also watched him pound out some copper-pipe caps into a flat top button and then send those buttons out to a shop to have them chromed. Then he put wooden dowel pieces underneath each cap to make a treble button. My guess is that the builders get together on these odd parts and make bigger orders and that the individual builders are not quite so much on their own.

(understand also that the early builders would buy Hohners and raid the reeds and bellows for their own accordions. this was the only way, in the early days, of be able to obtain reeds and bellows. They would also re-use buttons and stop pulls on occasion. So this idea of using what is available is really nothing new.)

These are the types of distinctions I was talking about. Please understand that I don't know of any true accordion "factories" in Louisiana. They are still made in small shops by one or two people.

Re: Re: % hand-made

Chris, those are treasured memories, thanks for sharing them.

It is fully understandable to me that craftmen today have to take some shortcuts that dont give up quality when they are trying to make a living. But I always hate to see the ability to do the old skills disappear, in any trade.

Bryan Lafleur

Re: Re: % hand-made

All builders that I know of make their own valve rods for the flappers. Some as you mention buy preturned register knobs. Mark has sold corners for many years and Larry did so later. This made the accordions look better while improving guality and helped to keep the labor cost down. IMHO!! However I am sure that you can find a builder to build one for you just like the old ones. Inquire!!

Re: Re: Re: % hand-made

thanks for all the input; i believe your answers combined to satisify what I was wondering about. I was wondering if most accordion builders in Louisiana were ordering a significant portion of the the parts which make up an accordion, and then just putting them together? Whether they were ordering the (pardon my ignorance) the wooden ends (bass and treble), and then adding the bellows, et cet.... If Mr. Miller makes a particular item himself, and makes enough of them to make them available to other builders, I still consider this to be homemade, or hand-made if you will. I can understand the reeds and bellows being ordered, from italy or wherever, but I didn't know how much of the components the builders were making the themselves, as opposed to ordering from mass production sellers. While no offense is intended to any builder (being from south Louisiana myself), i didn't know if 'hand-made' meant less now days than it meant 20 years.

: % hand-made

Italian accordions are not hand made????
Interesting

There are a couple of parts producers in Louisiana that are making reed blocks, fingerboards, bass boxes knobs, straps, and various components for other "builders"..

Someone still needs to assemble the boxes and fit and finish and tune them.

Stories vary about Savoy's production..

I bought a Quebec custom made one row...#31 in 25 years from this builder. Entirely hand made with the exception of the reeds.. He made the knobs the corners, the reed blocks and the bellows on his kitchen table..absolutely nothing like it..
As the story goes he made some bellows for Savoy many years ago... too expensive to continue to use..

Acoordions must be hand made.. even the Chinese accordion "factories" have hand workers..

I think we get bogged dow into what constitutes a one man shop and a "factory" or production situation

Look at the quality.. play the unit...
hand made and butted corners or production and mitred

Hand made and #2 reeds or Durals with plastic valves ... or production and twiced tuned Binci Pros...with leather..

Hand made with sound board holes misaligned or production and perfectly aligned

It's in the details...

Hohners were mass produced to a workmanlike standard and incredibly consistent.. with some messing about can be much better...I have never been disappointed by a Hohner..

case by case

ej

Re: Re: Re: Re: % hand-made

Here is a situtation that has never really been cleared up. Mark Savoy runs a music store and is in there most days unless he is touring. Now I have seen the back of the store and there he can assemble accordions. However there are not the necessary tools to cut and build all the parts. So over the years someone has been making his parts IMHO. Now that does not mean that I am critical of his instruments. Actually they are quiet good but not made by him.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: % hand-made

Hello Tee...

Don't know about Marc but most of the other builders that I know have a "cutting" or "sawing/sanding" room and a finishing room. Keeps the dust down in the finishing process...from reed work to final fitting and assembling, tuning, etc. Please don't assume that if you don't see cutting tools that the builders are ordering parts. Personally I don't know of any builders who sell preassembled sections like fingerboards and blocks. The only thing I know for sure that builders cooperate and trade on are things like stop pulls, leather parts (bass box straps, thumb straps, bellow fasteners), buttons, bellows, reeds. Unless you are going to paint the wood, it wouldn't make any sense to order a fingerboard, or bass box that doesn't match the rest of the accordion. For example, Mr. Ortego (Master) and Ken Guillory (La Louisianne) were/are two local builders that have separate rooms for cutting/finishing/painting.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: % hand-made

I have to agree with you on that Chris. Builders I know buy the small parts you mentioned and of coarse the reeds and bellows but make everything else. It makes sense for someone to set up a retail dept. for parts as this enables that person to buy in bulk for the benifit of both other builders and players as this helps keep the price down while improving quality. For instance the punch press and dies necessary to make the corners is quiet expensive and no one builder makes enough accordions to warrant that kind of kind of investment.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: % hand-made

As far as I know, Marc still does his cutting at the farmhouse. He even still brings his endplates down the road to Slim Bellard to get them engraved.

Parts is Parts

Believe what you like..
facts are facts which I'll keep to myself in future

ej

Re: Parts is Parts

Don't feel bad jefe! Your observations were appreciated.

: Parts is Parts

I don't feel bad at all, but having information can sometimes be a curse

I have been blasted as being anti Cajun by a blow hard
from this and another Cajun Accordion discussion group (now defunct and what happened to the D-18GE ? )
Accused of having a bias for accordions built in Quebec and Italy..essentially demeaned and called a liar for being a bit more aware and experienced than some folks..
others know more..there is always someone who knows more...and plays better..

If someone does not want to accept the facts.. that's their choice..

Even some of the venerated big time big dollar hard to get unless you are someone or pretend to be someone accordions have components built by others.. but folks .. that is the nature and history of the accordion business, and no big deal.. unless
They purport to make that which they do not make or imply that their accordions are 100% their own handwork.. then that I believe is not being up front..

and I am not referring to Savoy.. his peak was in the late 70's according to those who are familiar with such things.. I am not...
I have spoken with him and met him and as a result I have an opinion..
and right.. he tunes differently than other Cajiun builders.. ok so he doesn't use 7 Limit Just tuning as does everyone else.. but his tuning is no mystery
what one man/woman can do.. another can do

The majority of Italian builders go to accordion central and buy parts.. bellows come from the same folks (and no the bellows used in accordions made in the US are not the highest but high quality and good enough for the application
but as one Cajun builder told me.. have you ever worn out a bellows.. so that is a non issue)
springs and buittons and straps and levers and what all are readily available.. just as shocks and pistons and rims are to the American car biz...

It is a rare builder that makes most of his own components.. but the Quebec guys are closest
and yes,, it is true.. that Savoy elevated his knowledge greatly after a contact with a famous Quebec player and got to see his accordions and how the Quebec guys play...that is an historical fact from some of the principals involved..and one of them plays a Savoy on occasion.

I have owned 2 excellent handmade Cajun accordions and they are the epitome of the Cajun box.. Cajun character top to bottom.. thank you Jude...

I have also owned Quebec and Italian boxes and they all have their idiosyncracies(sp).. and Italians and Quebec builders do not make Cajun boxes.. not in design materials or workmanship.. but they make their own single row boxes..and they are very well made..
If I were to buy another 1 row it would be from a Dutch builder.. 11 buttons 6 bass one row with flappers not buttons on the base box...and removable reed blocks and some other quriky details.. but be prepared to pay around $2800 US.. I'm not there yet

And then price Eric MArtins one and 2 rows from France.. and Bertrand GAillard...and before you choke on the prices.. you need to see and play the boxes.. this goes for Messervier and Vezina And Breton and Briggs and so on
look inside a Castagnari... just take a look.. and then give me your opinion.....

I have no bias I have some hard won experience...
I'll keep it to myself..
this forum as regards this skirted topic is no different than what happens on a Tex Mex accordion discussion group.. and it's obvious..way too obvious..

I also am a professional woodworker ; butt joints are an expedient and the weakest of all joints.. and they look like caca....if you are a builder and you care.. you don't use butt joints

enough

And #6 ... call me when it's convenient..

El Jefe

#7

Merci

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: % hand-made

Hello Ganey,

Your'e lucky, being so close to "everything".
It never fails, the "Question, always pops up: Does Mark Savoy "really" builds his own accordions?.
But I have a few pointers to tell, as to what degree his involvement is with the building process.
The best way, visually that is to tell if someone is involved in manual labour is to look at someone's hands closely.
Fabricating accordions, that is "from the ground up" builds up over the years a number of calluses that you couldn't acquire otherwise, and that doesn't come from playing, it comes from griping power tools on a consistent dayly base, in feeding wood-machinery, like a thickness planer , or a table saw with raw material, witch you have to mill down to proper thickness.
Then there is the staining of the wood, varnishing and so on, tasks that will however carefull one is , leave marks on one fingers or face or arms , plus the unusual numbers of nicks and splinters to the
fingers that a professional craftsman will acquire weekly.
So the next time you have the chance to meet Mr. Savoy in person,or any of the remaining , unfortunatly so few left accordion buiders in LA, please check hand first with them, out of deference of course, but also as a mean of checking one's references so to speak .
Someone, male or female building accordions , that is going trough all the phases of fabrication, will have some of of the physical characteristics that I've mentionned, plus more.
And also, you can sometimes, if a woodworker is wearing glasses, see some fine wood dust either on their eyebrows or eye glasses.
AND, more importantly these people will have a powerfull handshake,power aquired over many years of using heavy machinery and hand tools, and that you can't fake, it's part of their credentials, so to speak.

Respectfully.

Claude.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: % hand-made

Your discription reminds me of Tina who works for Mark.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: % hand-made

There is no need to describe to me how to recognize a fraud. I am well aware of Marc's practice of assembling accordions from pieces that he neither cut, nor selected the wood for; however I can identify one of those from an authentic Acadian accordion while blindfolded.

I was merely responding to the statement about a lack of cutting tools and sawdust at the shop. That's because what wood he does cut is done at the farmhouse. In addition, I know of at least two accordion builders who use only a table saw and drill press to build their accordions, they don't cut on a regular basis and neither has callouses.

What you fail to realize, and apparently many others, is that the real question is does it really matter whether or not Marc cuts, assembles or tunes his own accordions? If it meets his approval and leaves the store, then it is an Acadian. Martin guitars are still among the finest guitars in the world and Christian Martin has been dead for more than 100 years. How did he pull that off?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: % hand-made

Hard to argue with a fan .

Nevertheless I would agree that Mr.Savoy has to give his final approval before an accordion bearing his name leaves his store.
And I'm not disputing the fact that Martin guitars are an Internationaly rated top of the line brand.
And your'e absolutely correct,in saying that it doesn't matter whether Mr. Savoy cuts, assembles or tunes his own accordions
And you did use the word "fraud", witch I didn't or even imply.
And it certainly was not my intention to call Mr. Savoy a "Fraud".
But, like many others I have read Mr. Savoy story as written by himself and for many years I have been under the impression that Mr Savoy builds,and tunes himself the accordions that bear his name.

I mean, you are a journalist living and working in the heart of cajun culture,and reporting on it,and I'm sure that you would rather be accurate in your
assesment(s)of one accordion builder's professional practices, so it would seem important to me to "verify" what "kind" of cutting goes on in the farmhouse. , obviously you do not know, yet, you "assume" that there is wood working activity there, or do you know for a fact that to be the truth?.
Look, on one hand you states that your'e well aware of Marc's practice of assembling accordions from pieces he neither cut.......and then you mention later that what wood he does cut is done at the farmhouse, sorry your'e confusing me, Ganey.
And the reason that the two accordion builders you know do not have callouses on their hands is because they dont practice their craft often enough, or they use parts as supplied by jobbers, and as such have to "simply" put together an accordion, witch doesn't requires that much cutting or hardly, and certainly wont give hand callouses , even if they do the tuning,as opposed to the practice of making the "all" accordion like Mr. Ortego used to do.

Respecfully,

claude.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: % hand-made

One of the builders I am referring to is a so called "jobber." He cuts out corners, makes paddles and reed blocks for several builders. Marc Savoy and Randy Falcon are among his customers. He is a relative of mine, and he has shown me the differences in their specifications.

To clear up the confusion, for a number of years, Marc assembled pre-cut accordions which he bought from John Gabbanelli in Houston, TX. I know this because I have in my possession one of the kits which was provided to me my Mr. Gabbanelli prior to his death. I have also had two accordions that were a product of this relationship between Marc and Gabbanelli. It continued until they had a falling out, and Marc found another supplier.

Marc did this because he couldn't keep up with the demand, and he saw a way to do it. They are identical to authentic Acadian accordions but "Made in Italy" is engraved at the bottom of the endplate.

I didn't mean to imply that you were calling Marc a fraud, but I see it often enough on here.

1. Marc doesn't build his own accordions: If Marc approves it before it leaves, who cares?

2. Mitered corners are stronger than butt corners: This is true, but the fact that an endplate is glued around the entire perimeter of the frame makes the joints at the corners almost irrelevant.

3. Stops should be left in the up position: Builders who say this are concerned with the fact that prolonged use of the stop can loosen the fit and cause them to drop. The stops are there for a reason. Yes, they assist in tuning, but they also change voicing. Chris Miller is the best verification of this.

4. Change your top "G" to an "A" because its redundant: In the days prior to electronic tuners, the top G note provided a root note to tune the notes of the pull. Yes, there is a G on the bass side of the accordion, but the bass side isn't attached while tuning. Nobody tunes this way now so put whatever note you want there.

The fact remains that none of it really matters. Watch players, listen to players, ask questions, try your own thing. Just play.

It seems that more people respond to the "drama" posts than the genuine posts. When Aaron was encouraged to drop the drama and be more helpful, he did, and he got little response.

I have read this board for a number of years, but I post a lot less these days. I've been in and around Cajun music for a long time. I know a lot of people. But it is getting more and more apparent that what I know doesn't matter because the people paying thousands and thousands of dollars to attend Augusta and Balfa Camp are surpassing me in their knowledge.

I try to be helpful when I can. I am a realist, and I don't beat around the bush. In person, I am very matter-of-fact, and I realize that my posts come across as blunt and sometime harsh. For that I apologize. To my face to face friends, Doc Gene, Big Nick, Neal, Jude, Ed and Chris keep up the good work. Chris sometimes reminds me of a Clifton Chenier quote, "You gots to be who you is!"

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: % hand-made

Thanks, Ganey, for clearing up the confusion.

Claude.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: % hand-made

Bien dit neg.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: % hand-made

I have to agree! Too many people commenting here have little knowledge about accordion quality and when those who have knowledge try to keep things in prospective give correct information they are critisized. There are several not too well known builders who do quiet a good job. Besides the overiding comments show that the majority want to pay as little as possible, nothing wrong with that, but then worry if a certain builder is turning his own knobs for the stops. Modit!! So hey, if you want a cheap price, grab yourself one of those Chinese things and shut up. Who knows, it may be just what you need for now.

Personally I still prefer those mitered corners. They look so much better and professional. IMHO!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: % hand-made

soo.. that explains my 1990's..Savoy box in D..

It was far different than ones I'd had in the past.. and looked "pieced together".. it reeked of DYI.

Sound was weak, lighter than most D boxes, it was not varnished but a clear silicon "plasticised"... and the reed blocks had "Re" pencilled in in Italian calligraphy...

When compared with others of the same make I'd tried/owned ( total of 4 ) .. there was no comparison. It was most definitely inferior.

Not a question of fraud.. a question of meeting demand..but some shortcuts are costly in other ways perhaps.

It was originally bought in Canada.. don't know if that has anything to do with it.

G.

Claude

respectfully, this has to be one of the weirdest comments ever posted on this forum, and there've been a few. Tu rigoles,non?
Jean-Pierre

Re: Claude

My apologies that you didn't like my posting.

Claude.



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