It has been brought up in an earlier post and I was curious to get other opinions.

On several old songs I have heard, I mean from the 20's and 30's, they sound to me like they are not playing in real time. They sound too fast. We have slowed some down to sound more like we think they should. Amedée Breaux shouldnt sound like Cleoma, but he does on at least one song I heard unless it is slowed down.

Just curious if others have noticed this, and I wonder why this would occur. If it is being played too fast in the recording, why wouldnt the people who digitalize it redo it? Or are we imagining things? Maybe I am just too slow

I have allways thought that the tempo of earlier recordings is different from later. For example, I've noticed that the waltz tempo used to be faster and two step tempos were slower. They don't seem slower at first listen because the musicians were using more complex notation, but compared to later recordings with drums and bass, I think you see where I'm going with this.

On the other hand, 78rpm equipment, sometimes, did infact change the pitch of the recording from d to e flat or e, which is why I like to play in those keys- for that old timey sound. That, however is not enough to increase the tempo much. Other musicians, esp fiddlers would use a relative tuning- not standard to anything partly I think because they could and partly to prevent an accordion from trying to jump in. (Hateful old Fiddlers!)

We also have to take into consideration the human element. These recordings were made in places like New Orleans, San Antonio, Chicago and New York. Any musician from South Louisiana in the late 20's and 30's most probably had never been out of the area, much less the state and the excitement of the trip could have been enough to speed up the performance for the recording.

These are my opinions and I'm sticking to them.

Hi Cory! Glad to see you posting on the Board again. I came across an email you had sent quite some time ago that I had neglected to reply to. We get so much junk mail that at times I do miss REAl ones. Please accept my apologies. Hope you and all your family are doing well.

Musician over-excitement, recording speed error, and don't forget that maybe the man doing the recording didn't know Cajun music and would ask the musician to speed up because he only had 3 minutes per side!

In any case, Cory, you do a wonderful job with those strange old timers like Amede Breaux and Delin Guillory. And I know y'all are partial to Joe Falcon and Cleoma, too.

When you mentioned fiddlers playing in relative tunings, did that refer to the string band guys like Leo Soileau and J.B. Fusilier?

Neal you hit on my suspicion. I think all the ones I wanted to speed up were less than 3 minutes and where I sped them up to were just over 3 minutes.

Bryan,

I think it is Amadie and some of what you are noticing is the tone quality, not the pitch. The tone quality of the old recording technology really makes all those recordings sound different, more treble kind of like a telephone receiver tone, you know.

My vote is this is Amadie and that was the tempo.

Yes, I think old time waltzes during this time were all much quicker than now...I "blame" it on Iry LeJeune. He really had a different ornate way of playing waltzes that require a bit less tempo or it sounds frantic. That style influenced many others during that time and I think it was one of the causes of the slower waltz tempo.

Also, the dancers have always governed what is appropriate. Styles of dancing have changed and the tempos have changed along with that.

I love both styles, by the way.

I have to agree with you Cory, some of the old recorded waltzes were a little faster and the two steps were slower. I think there is factor involved in all that. We call it "the groove". There is a certain "groove" for each tune, waltz or two step, that just feels right for that tune. There is also what I refer to, as the "heart and soul" of the song.If you go too far either way, outside of that "groove", you can loose the feel of the tune,
the "heart and soul" of it.
I never really thought a lot about "playing speed" until I started playing with an electronic drum machine.
The one I use has a digital read out, giving the beats per minute. I had to experiment with the speed of each tune I played until I found the right "groove". I then recorded that "number" in a small notebook so I could dial that speed in for the tune I was playing.
It's amazing to see the difference in speeds from tune to tune. For instance, I play most wltzes in the 124-126 range. But, songs like Tee Yeux Noirs and Marie are played at 112. Two steps range from as fast as 198-208 and some as slow as 184-188. The interesting thing is to see how big a difference just 2 beats per minute can make to the feel of any given tune.
I think that in the begining ( "the old days" ) the musicians just played it like they felt it, and yes , as Cory stated, they may have been a little excited knowing that they were being recorded. But I think they just played it. I believe there may have come a time later, when there may have been an effort to impress the listening audiance ( and other musicians ) by playing two-steps faster ??? I don't know, just my opinion. I have heard some recordings , and live performances, that just don't have the "heart and soul" because the two-steps are played too fast.
But to me, it seems that now we're getting back to just playing ( and recording )it, the way it feels right .
For those who know me, I like to play the old way.
I'm still learning how to do that. But, that's where I want to be. I think that there are a lot of young, talented musicians coming along, who are taking our music into the future, and it's evolving as it goes.
And I'm all for it and they have my support for what they're doing. But I want to preserve the old music so that it is not forgotten, because that's where the heart and soul come from, and without that, it's not Cajun any more.
Jude

My sentiments exactly Jude. Cajun music has never not been evolving. Even what we consider "traditional" was evolving at the time it was first recorded. I like to listen to many of the new musicians and appreciate their interpretations, but I will always like that "old" sound and I am glad their are still some of you keeping it alive.

What you and Cory are saying is no doubt true, but there are a few songs that I am refering to that I am not sure if they fit into the category ya'll are describing. The thing that stands out to me is not just the music, but the vocals, they are too high. Kind of like how they get the "chipmunks" sound, but not as exagerated. The one example right off hand I think of is the Breaux Brothers "La Valse du Vieux Temps". I can email the song to anyone who would like to see what I am talking about, or maybe Neal could provide a link to it. But it doesnt sound like Amedée until I slow it down. It is possible it is Cleoma, though.

Neal, what do you think?

Bryan, it sounds to me like Amede singing on the links above. My copy of Valse du Vieux Temps sounds distorted, and I don't know if that was a recording error back then, deterioration of Joe Bussard's copy, or maybe even when I digitized it.

For lagniappe, Fais Do Do, Negre is a nice fast one you don't hear anybody play anymore. Allie Young used to do it when he played at Fred Tate's but I don't know if he recorded it.

Thank you Neal, for providing those links, and for putting to rest my puzzlement, on this anyway.

Your version of La Valse Du Vieux Temps is just like my version after I slowed it down. The one I started with was a lot faster, and sounds more like Cleoma than Amedée. So now I wonder if it was from the person digitilizing the record who played it at the wrong speed, or the company putting it out changing the speed to fit it onto available space. I dont know the source of the version I have.

And now about Iry Lejeune's "It Happened To Me", exact opposite this time. It is a version of "Grand Bosco" with slightly different words and, at least on my version, sounds too slow, like it is dragging. When I speed it up it sounds closer to "Grand Bosco". I think I got this one off of the cassette.

Sorry to keep harping on this subject.

I wonder, in the case of "Grand Bosco" and "It Happened To Me", if one wasn't an alternate take of another. After all, if it was, Iry would have only gotten paid for the one song. But then again, I believe one of them came out after he was dead.
I did speed up "It Happened To Me" and it the pitch and the speed prety much matches "Grand Bosco", which is why I'd question if they were both cut at the same session.

I think they are different recordings of the same song.

In Grand Bosco, he says Si tu me voir 'pres marcher gone a Grand Bosco.

In It Happened to Me, he says Si tu me voir 'pres marcher au long du chemin d'fer. He doesn't mention Bosco at all.

In Grand Bosco, it's after verse one that he tells the fiddle to take it. In It Happened to Me, it's after the third verse.

Most bands you hear today mix up the two sets of lyrics very happily. They are very close.