What my last post said is that Marc, Randy, Charlie, Elton and Sidney would be the exception and probably had access to Sterlings and Monarchs when they were starting out. There aren't too many others who started building before...say...1980 or so.
Ken Guillory learned from Laten Miller. Laten Miller learned from John Roger. Laten has Marc's blueprints that he got from Roger. They may have seen Monarchs or Sterlings in their shop over the years, but I'm pretty sure neither learned how to build by taking one apart, and I would be surprised if they changed anything they do because of what they saw in one.

You make it sound as though I am disputing the fact that they are modeled after Sterlings and Monarchs when that is not the case. Of course, they are, but I don't know of any builder that is actively seeking Sterlings and Monarchs to improve their accordion. Everyone gets an opportunity to peek into another builders box, but they all want to look in Marc's.

What started this debate is the fact that I posed the original question about reedblocks to several builders of which none could give me an answer. The predominant answer was "thats just the way they are." Marc gave me an answer that made sense.

Yes...he is surrounded by myths and lies, many perpetuated by Marc himself, but I don't see the problem with acknowledging his part in all of this.

I am glad to be able to discuss these issues and really feel that productive answers can be reached. There are just too many misconception out there that need to be discussed also. First of all John Roger was an accompolished cabinetmaker. ie Furniture maker and wood carver. He was trained to reproduce pieces of furniture from pictures. He had taken many measurments from the old sterlings and monarchs and had all these in his shop though they were lost during Katrina. He had also traveled extrensivly in Quebec meeting many of the accordion builders there and had 6 accordions under construction using reed block designs and ideas he had gathered from the Quebec builders and old sterlings and monarchs over the years. Unfortunatly they were also lost. Now the builders in Quebec started expermenting early in their careers and more so after seeing many of Marks accordions. This in turn led them in a slightly different direction than the cajuns had been following. They were looking for very fast responce and a loud sound. That is the main reason for keeping two reed blocks laying down in their accordions. They believe that it produces a quicker response and louder sound. Now having seen and heard many of the musicians there playing on accordions built there I have to agree with them. They seem to have gotten what they wanted and they are not afraid to change the design to suit their needs either. They mostly use a right hand keyboard very similar to the hohner 114 keyboard for that same reason and almost never build the registers into their instrumnets. So hey it's working for them. Maybe some of the cajun builders should try these ideas.

So please guys lets keep the discusion going and let no one take offense. New things can be learned.

Gregg...thanks for pointing that out to me because I realize I mentioned the wrong name. I said John Roger(New Orleans, right?) when I was thinking John Hebert(9 button man) and I should have said Leger. I've really only heard Laten refer to him as "Old Man...so and so." I don't recall if it was Hebert or Leger.

There is a lot of information that is not correct and it is really bothering me. Some of the misinformation affects different builders' reputations and some affects just the historical aspects. I'm sorry to point it out but I really want us to get it right on this forum because that is what it is all about--whenever possible.

I did a little research and called a few builders.
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When referring to why Marc Savoy was the builder everyone was copying--
From Ganey's post:
"Ken Guillory learned from Laten Miller. Laten Miller learned from John Roger. Laten has Marc's blueprints that he got from Roger."

and after Gregg's posts vouching for John Roger doing his own research on Old Sterlings and Monarchs:

Ganey writes: "I said John Roger(New Orleans, right?) when I was thinking John Hebert(9 button man) and I should have said Leger. I've really only heard Laten refer to him as "Old Man...so and so." I don't recall if it was Hebert or Leger."

My response:
It was NOT John Roger OR John Hebert OR John Leger that helped Mr. Laten Miller get started...it was Fred Cormier. That is who helped Laten get started. Charlie (Ortego) wouldn't help him even though they lived across the street from one another! Espera Broussard (from Lacassine) and Laten found out Fred would help them and that is who they visited.

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From your posts:
"Ken Guillory learned from Laten Miller. Laten Miller learned from John Roger. Laten has Marc's blueprints that he got from Roger."

I talked to Laten and he said he NEVER received any blueprints from Marc and of course couldn't have gotten any from John Roger or Hebert because he doesn't even know those guys.

I talked to Larry Miller and he also says "there is no such thing as any blueprints ever being handed out by Marc."
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From Ganey's posts:

"You (chris) make it sound as though I am disputing the fact that they are modeled after Sterlings and Monarchs when that is not the case. Of course, they are, but I don't know of any builder that is actively seeking Sterlings and Monarchs to improve their accordion."

My response--go talk to Randy Falcon...his whole philosophy with the reed tongue lengths and taper of the reed tongue is based on the stacks of salvaged Sterlings in his shop.

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From Ganey's posts:
"What started this debate is the fact that I posed the original question about reedblocks to several builders of which none could give me an answer. The predominant answer was "thats just the way they are." Marc gave me an answer that made sense."

[What started the thread was something like Phil asking...why are the reed blocks 2 up and 2 down--wouldn't standing reed blocks that could be changed out be better? ]

My response--they are 2 up 2 down because that was the old German design in the Sterling and Monarch on which they are all based.

to continue...

My response and beginning of what I hoped to be a discussion--Builders have done the reed blocks that way because that is how they were in the Monarch and Sterling, not because Marc handed out blueprints. Marc may have had to justify to himself a reason for keeping them that way, but the bottom line is...that is the way the Monarch and Sterlings were made and THAT is what our Louisiana accordions are modeled after. I understand that is not a satisfying or scientific answer but those are the facts. They are not modeled after a Marc (or Mark) Savoy design. This is in no way meant to slight Marc for all he has done for the continued improvement on that Monarch/Sterling design.

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Finally from one of Ganey's posts in response to me pointing out that Sidney Brown was the true Louisiana pioneer and that he was making accordions on the Sterling/Monarch pattern:

Ganey:
"As for Sidney Brown, I don't think I have ever seen one of his accordions with two-up, two-down. Doesn't mean there aren't any. I've seen the insides of about twenty of his accordions and most had hohner reeds on hohner blocks. Some were on blocks he made, but I don't remember any of them laying down."

Larry Miller's response--Never did Sidney make an accordion with two standing reed blocks unless he was just converting a Hohner for someone. (My 2 cents-I guess he might have put his name on some of these, because he did the work to turn them into what he called a "French Accordion.) Larry says the accordions Sidney made from scratch were always 2 up and 2 down.

Jude's response--the one he looked at was 2 up 2 down

Laten Miller response--Sidney always made them 2 up and 2 down. He did convert some Hohners also and just kept the reed blocks from the Hohners, but his were always 2 up and 2 down.

Sorry to pick this apart but I really think that things were getting confusing and could possibly lead to misinformation about some of our builders and building history and I want the facts to be correct.

Gregg's comments lead me to another question. Does the sound come from the block alone or is it a combination of the reedblock and its contact with the keyboard faceplate?

If it's the latter, then don't the shims used to create the space for the stops mechanism also compromise this contact, particularly those used for the centre block as the contact is so much less than the outer reedblocks.

As the stops are to some extent redundant beyond a requirement for tuning is there a benefit to leaving them out as they present so many constructional problems?

Gregg, please could you clarify what you mean by minimum chamber size, is this minimum depth or width?

In studying what the builders in Quebec have done I see where they have minimized both depth, heigth and width. Keep in mind that you don't have much to play with on the width. Also they benifit from using 7/16 inch air holes. I agree with Ganey concerning Marks degree. I only mentioned it because I did not think that he got where he is because of it. I know he expirmented quiet a bit. Now when I studied with John Roger I know he had access to Monachs and Sterlings because at the time they were in his shop. He also worked with and supplied parts to some of the Quebec Builders for a time.

The Quebec builders say that leaving the registers out helps the accordion have more volume. Also, they use 3/16" thick solid wood for the end plates and as I mentioned before they most always make the stand up reed block removable. Now while their accordions are very loud I find their tuning harsh.

I'm just looking at a photo of the insides of a 3 reed box on ebay uk which the seller believes dates back around 100 years (I can't comment on the accuracy) but to a large degree the insides are the same as a cajun box. 2 flat reedblocks and a vertical central block with 1 reed.

I don't dispute in anyway that the flat reeds give slightly more volume/depth and Louisiana builders have certainly innovated on the design but I wonder whether the original reason was not about tone but economics. These were mass produced instruments not hand crafted individual products. To my untutored eye making a flat reedblock seems easier and less prone to problems than a vertical version. Similarly glueing in was maybe cheaper than the extra work required to put in catches and cut felt.

Just a thought.

I would think you are more on track with that thought. Concertinas are flat mounted also, I think.

There is more to reed block placement than economy.
Many brands of cheap accordions use stand up reed blocks. You must keep in mind that the German designed one row accordion like the Cajuns and Quebecois build and play on has 4 sets of reeds even though it only has one row of buttons. There are no other accordions out there like it.

One row of buttons, 4 sets of reeds. With all the registers open 4 reeds sound when one button is pushed on the treble side. To get that sound you would need to get a 4 reed piano accordion. Now please note that I know a piano accordion has more that 10 keys. But on a 4 reed instrument you get 4 reeds sounding per key.

Gregg, I don't dispute that there is more to reedblock placement than economy. Obviously you aren't going to get 4 reeds into a box this size without using at least one vertical reedblock.

All I was suggesting was, putting myself into the position of a German manufacturer 100 years ago, would I think I could save some man hours by only manufacturing 1 vertical reedblock and fitting the other 2 flat. So was this layout an accident of economy and manufacturing requirements rather than a concious decision for performance reasons?

You would have thought, intuitively, if you were looking to balance the sound, you would put 2 vertical blocks in rather than mix them up.

But, as I said, it's only a thought.

We see a lot of old German economy 2 and 3 reed instruments, and only the odd 4 reed in the UK, but I guess it would be interesting to take a look inside some 2 and 3 reed and see what's fitted, and whether the 2 reed have vertical blocks, which would blow my theory out of the water.

I don't think it was an accident on the part of the German builders back then. I think ( I have no real knowledge, nor have I done any research, I simply am going on what I beleive to be reasonable deduction)there were two schools of thaought back then.
You had the Monarch and Sterling, looking for sound quality. Then you had the Hohner, economical, easily manufactured and easy to install/change out reed blocks. My 2 cents worth.
As for the discussion on the air regesters:
I don't dispute the idea that without them, you would gain volume and responce. I also understand the thought of some, more learned than I, that the regesters are there to facilitate being able to change the "voicing" of the instrument. But, from the point of a Cajun accordionist and builder, I don't know if I would have the patience to attempt to tune a four row accordion with out to aid of the registers. It's already a pain in the @#$$ to isolate the reeds on the bass side in order to tune them. I hate to think about trying to isolate 1 out of 4 ( per row), times 80 ( 40 pushing, 40 pulling ) reeds, in order to dry tune one our instruments!!!
I just wounder if the gain in volume is worth the added time ( time + more $$$ ) ?
Gregg mentioned that some Qubec builders are using 3/16 thick solid wood for face plates, along with doing away with the regesters. I find that insteresting because, I have had several occasions to repair very old ( pre WW II ) accordions that had solid wood face plates. Every one of them were cracked from top to bottem . Needless to say, they leaked air. But the piont is, I beleive that in time, a solid wood face plate will split. Again, is the gain in volume worth the consiquence ??
Jude

Concerning using solid wood for the endplates Jude has a good point. They may split. The trick is to use a very stable wood, There are several, and as with a panel door on furniture you have to let it float in the frames using a flexable adhesive to hold and seal it in place. Now for the tuning. You use the same procedure as you would if you were tuning one of the single row 4 bass accordions with 2 sets of unremovable reed blocks. You tape the holes off on those not being tuned and move the tape over to the next when those you are working on are tuned. So on a cajun style accordion use a small strip of wood and a clamp on the keyboard to hold all the buttons down so that all the valves are open. Then depending on where you want to start take strips of blue painters tape and slip these under the valves from each end and tape three row of holes off. Remove the clamp and strip of wood holding the buttons down and Tune the reeds you left untaped. After that repeat the first step. Then cover the holes of the reeds tuned and open one of the other rows and tune them. Repeat until they are all done. Cest sampler!!!

I understand your point about solid wood Jude. I addressed this on another reply. Anyone not feeling comportable using solid wood should use plywood and if they want to experiment a little just leave the registers out. If you do this perhaps you should use 3/16" plywood for strength and avoid a curving end plate keeping in mind that a treble face plate with the registers installed is 1/4" thick.

I am not a builder. Every builder I have talked to has told me the same thing about the endplates splitting and it makes sense to me.

Why do solid wood? What would that benefit? Sidney Brown made some with "Masonite" endplates! And a lot of those sound really good, too!

A stronger argument is that the endplate hasn't really been shown to be that much of a factor in tone. In fact, I don't think the overall wood of the accordion has much to do with it either. Tone, for the most part, is dependent on the reeds and reedplates. Response is also very dependent on the proper gap between the reed tongue and the slot. I would believe with others, that the reed blocks also affect attack and and repsonse and to a lesser degree tone. I think tone comes 80-85% from the reeds themselves.

I have always wanted someone to do a real scientifically controlled experiment and measure tone differences between different sets of reeds in mounted in the same accordion...and different accordions with the same exact set of reeds. ( you would have to take the reeds out of the accordion for every different test.) My theory is that the same set of reeds would sound basically the same no matter what accordion they were put in. The other side of the theory is that changing reeds is a greater determinant of changing an accordion's tone than changing any other element in the design--blocks, wood type, etc.

I would love to be proven wrong just as much as proven right. I just would like to know. Other things that I ran across on the web suggest similar results...that in a free reed instrument, it is really the reed and reedplate itself that is the main factor in tone. (this doesn't mean response or loudness, etc.)

I asked Larry Miller that question at the festival last weekend and he answered that he felt, as you said, that the sound is totally in the reeds and reed blocks. He said as far as sound it wouldnt make a difference in type of wood, or even it if it was wood at all.

I did exactly the "experiment" that you discribe Chris.
I've been trying to explain that to different people for years now. I built an accordion, installed Binci "C" #1 reeds in it, played it and got a feel for the tone and the volume. I then took the Binci's out and relaced them with Salpa "C" #1. I then took the Binci reeds and installed them into a different accordion to see if they sounded any different.
Here is what I learned: in the same accordion, there is a noticable difference in tone between Binci and Salpa. From one accordion to another, the Binci's did have a difference in sound. I had to "retune" some of the reeds because the reed blocks were slightly different. Over the years of experimenting with reed block design, and different hole sizes, I have learned that there can be a difference in volume, tone and responce from the same set of reeds. Randy Falcon has discussed this me many times.
I think Gregg spelled it out in an earlier post but,
the "short story" is: the smaller the "air chamber" ( the space under the reed plate) is, and the larger the air hole in the face plate/air register ( the air supply to the reeds ), the more volume and responce the reeds will have. I could also add that I beleive that if it were posible to lay all four rows of reeds flat, that would probably be the most powerfull and responsive accordion possible. Just my opinion.
Jude

Jude if it is describable, what is the difference in sound of the Bincis and Salpas? Which do you prefer?

Jude, given that Randy Falcon uses 3 reeds rather than 4 in his 2 key accordions, would there be any percentage in building a three reed box and lying all three blocks down?

Good question. It could be done, but, I think it would be a wash on volume because you would loose some by sacrificing one row of clairinet reeds in order to gain by laying the third row flat. That other negative to having only three rows is, you can not have a wet tune because you give up the other clai. row, which is usually the wet tuned row.
Jude

Well no offence to everyone else but please heed what Gregg and Jude are saying. Those experiments were also done by builders many, many times in Quebec with the same results. Now just a little point. If you take reeds out of an accordion and reinstall them in the same accordion right after there may be some you will have to retune no matter. They hardly ever just go back in with no touch up tuning.

Of coarse the reeds and blocks contribute the most to the sound of an accordion but remember that the sound is bouncing around in there and the surfaces it bounces off of is going to make a difference no matter how small. If you varnish the inside of an accordion reed blocks and all, then install the reeds it will sound different than if you had not varnished it.

Have you done that experiment? I would be very curious to know, esp. if it was the same accordion and reeds, and reedblocks--the only difference being the varnish. We need to know these things. If it will really make a difference, then we need to be doing it, you know?

I am still going to venture a GUESS that the difference would be negligible. I did a very unscientic paper for my music physics class that looked at the "acoustics" of the Cajun accordion. It was VERY unscientific, no data, really; just observation. Before I started working on it, I really thought the wood and everything would make more of a difference. I am not saying that it doesn't make ANY difference, just that it is such a smaller factor in tone than in the reeds, and reedplates. The way free reeds work is very different than say string on a violin or guitar--in those instances the wood is a major component in tone.

I have already tried that experment and I find that there is quiet a difference, and more so to the trained musicians ear.

If I might add a footnote here. Builders in Quebec have, for lack of a proper word, advanced much more in design changes, sound improvment, response etc. than thier Cajun conterparts.

How nice. But all those kinds of things are subjective. I mean what sounds better to one person or one region is not what the other person or region will call "better" or "more advanced." Everybody likes different things. Just for example, brighter and louder does not always mean better to everyone. Some people like rich and mellow. I don't know the difference because I have never heard the Canadian boxes. It is probably "better" for musicians up there, because it fits in with their tastes.

That's the whole story Cris! They like thier accordions loud and with the tuning they use I find that they sound harsh. But they play music more similar to Irish music. I prefer the mellow sound ie cajun style and being most are miced, up to a point loudness was not my thing. What ever floats your boat I say. Don't pass a good accordion up just because it doesn't blow everyone out the room acousticly.

I remember when we were in school Mark Savoy spelled his name like this: Mark Savoy!!

Sidney Brown from Lake Charles appears to be the father of the modern cajun accordion. the WRITINGS section at savoymusiccenter.com has a lot of information, Especially A HISTORY OF THE ACADIAN ACCORDION.