Welcome to old and new friends who are interested in discussing Cajun and other diatonic accordions, along with some occasional lagniappe....



CAJUN ACCORDION DISCUSSION GROUP

 

General Forum
Start a New Topic 
Author
Comment
View Entire Thread
Re: Re: Let the worms out of the can!

Word for the day "sociolinguistic" !! I'd have an easier time trying to solve a chemisty equation than saying that word three times over !!

Re: Re: Let the worms out of the can!

Good, cause it will never be agreed on.

Re: Let the worms out of the can!

Bien dit!!

Re: Re: Let the worms out of the can!

Here's another 2 cents worth.
When I was 12 , in high school in Ontario the french teacher told us that Quebec french was "bad" french, was "not real french" because it was not "Parisian". My teacher, Miss Fox, was not even francophone and really didn't know her **** fron a hole in the ground!
The joke is later I learned what Maz has said, that everyone including parisians speak standard french with outsiders and a local patois amongst themselves. Parisians use a lot of local slang you never learn in school i.
By the 1970's language instructionstarted to change and the aquisition of greater representation and autonomy of quebec, acadian and other francophone minorities within Canada, many people started to become more tolerant and open to regional varities of the language.
The reality is that each regional accent has it's own unique flavour, you could even call it music or poetry if you want to get fancy.
The various cajun accents are no different,
It makes sense to learn the basic grammar of international french in writing , but to teach the local variations and accent in the conversation part of the language class.
For various historical reasons the english language has been more accepting of divers accents, but the french culture obsessed on reforms generated by the
Academie de La Langue Francaise.
I am on thinner ground here, but perhaps native louisianians can correct me:
I believe at it's beginning CODOFIL was directed by francophones who still identified themselves as more creole than cajun and favoured the standard french over more regional cajun forms. I have also heard that originally there was a shortage of qualified cajun french teachers but that has gradually changed, and Codofil has grown much more open to the local way of speaking french.

Re: Re: Re: Let the worms out of the can!

Creole has nothing to do with CODOFIL. Creole is a separate language all its own, but Cajun French is a dialect of French. CODOFIL's president at the time of its creation was James Domengeaux, a Cajun. He constantly called his own native form of French "bastaгd French" in favor of Standard Metropolitan French. However, he was a hypocrite. While meeting with French government officials, he would use Cajun French to communicate. I guess his "bastaгd French" was good for something afterall.

---Roy---

Re: Re: Re: Re: Let the worms out of the can!

Wow, you go away for a while to be a part of Archive Aid, and things get antsy.

As far as whether Cajun French is taught in any educational systems: yes, the University of Louisiana-Lafayette teaches classes in Cajun French. BUT to take those classes, you first have to go through 4 semesters of standard French. So, the consensus at UL is that the two are close enough so that a grounding in standard French will equip you to learn the fine points of the local dialect.

Incidentally, this is the same experience my father had in France during his tour with the army. Cajun French is perfectly compatible with standard French.

Creole French, however, is significantly different. The slave trade that supplied Louisiana went through the Carribean and that layover resulted in slaves learning a very different form of French that is difficult for speakers of standard French to understand.

As an example, one time I was driving a guest speaker at our university (who had near-native French fluency)to the airport. To pass the time, we were talking about French in Louisiana. I had Bon Reve in the car, and I played "Vini, Jilie" as a demonstration of the creole dialect. She couldn't grasp but a few words.

----------------------

Do schools teach Cajun French? There may be some, but the vast majority default to Standard French.

Are we the first to argue about this? No. When it was established, CODOFIL chose to default to standard French because there were no accredited teachers who could teach Cajun French. (Here's where we can get into a long argument about accreditation vs. actual knowledge in teaching). The BESE Board would not allow anyone to teach students in public schools unless they were accredited. End of story.

For CODOFIL, it was a choice of teaching standard French or not teaching any French at all. CODOFIL made the easy decision.

However, the Cajun French Music Association (CFMA) has been highly critical of CODOFIL's deference toward standard French. But then, the CFMA only came along later--after CODOFIL laid the groundwork.

-----------------------

On a completely different subject, the whole idea of standard French is a power ploy. Standard French is, originally, the dialect of French spoken in the Paris/Loire area. This dialect was chosen as the standard dialect because that re-inforced the idea that Paris was the epicenter of all French culture.

This was part of Paris's plan to centralize the entire French state around Paris. Even today, EVERYTHING in France has to go through Paris. For example, try taking a train and NOT going through Paris. It's nearly impossible.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let the worms out of the can!

Just for the record I was not to referring to the black creole french dialect, but to white creole people of european french but not cajun descent.

a different can of worms

Haha, that's a whole nuther big can of squirming worms. There just isnt anything simple about this south louisiana culture, whether you're talking about music, food or language. The influences are complicated and varied, depending on region, and even family. Wont even find a consensus on the meanings of Cajun or Creole. They mean different things to different people and in different contexts. It all boils down to a whole bunch of people from a lot of different places getting together in different ways in different places, staying somewhat isolated from each other, and evolving in different ways at different rates, and now with many different takes on the whole mess. It would be nice to have some pat explanations and answers, but it just aint so, and never will be. The one thing many of us agree on is that the big gumbo pot has made pretty good cultural gumbo, no matter what labels get put on it. Those darn worm can lids keep falling off.

Re: some armchair linguistics.

Very dangerous to generalize about language . . . but

By saying that Cajun French and Standard French (SF)* are completly compatible, I assume that each speaker finds the other variety ( both lexically and phonemically ) comprehensible. Each speaker carries on using their own version while understanding the other. A bit like when I speak Italian in Mexico, or speak standard Italian to an older person who responds to me in local dialect ( knowing I will .. or will have to make an effort to understand ).

I find, in this case, perhaps, more than being compatible.. they are mutually comprehensible.. which is fine, in certain contexts: for general interpersonal conversation ( phatic talk ), but less compatible if you are engaged in problem-solving or communciation which requires the accurate exchange of information ( giving directions, following detailed instructions verbally, transactions etc. ).

Context and purpose perhaps influence the appropriacy in language choices ( CF or SF ): i.e. the strength of your accent or your word choice can create solidarity within a group ( with other Cajuns at a Gumbo or Dance ).. or might backfire when showing some French pensioner tourists around Eunice and you both get tired of asking each other to repeat, or you have to code-switch into English. Most likely they will ask their neighbour if they heard right, or will politely nod, hoping it will be clear later. Gaps in understanding do remain, no matter how slight.
I agree that Cajun French should be taught when added to and based on Standard French* . Cajun French should only alternative to consider if your communication is to be limited largely to Cajun culture, places, situations. Given that the two varieties are relatively "compatible", there's nothing wrong with learning Standard French, with an American accent (BTW is that rhotic /r/ in Cajun French from English .. it's certainly the glottalized /r/ in most varieties of French ? ).. and to be able to understand Cajun speakers at the same time. If not , then rename CF to CFD Cajun French Dialect ( and don't equate it with SF ).

From what I hear on CF spoken DVDs ( Gino and Horace and others ) when interviewed ( by that wonderful Canadian French ( CF ! ) lady ... I suspect Cajun French speakers do more code-switching ( back into English ) than Standard French speakers. She was actually feeding them vocabulary, and they were asking for confirmation on some words..there was recurrent repetition on her part to assure them she was understanding.

* Standard French, as accurately pointed out, and as in the case of any "Standard Variety " is not by nature BETTER than other varieties and is an invention. History, power or other circumstances have appropriated prestige onto that variety... especially in terms of accent ( in British English it is Recieved Pronunciation spoken by fewer than 3% of the population.. but all dictionaries use it to transcribe how people should pronounce words) .. . . unfortunately we do need a standard.. and it has to be that one which is most widely understood ( regardless of the historical and political implications ).

.. In the end, it all boils down to where, with whom, and for what purpose you need than variety..so context
dictates what should be learned perhaps.

G.

Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

sorry.. I meant that the rhotic /r / in Cajun French is mostly likely a cross-contamination from the American English pre-vocalic /r / .. and is not the glottalized / r/ from SF ..

Scuzem-uaaa ! G.

Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

In Cajun French, it's the aveolar trill (rolled R), however, the English R sound is also heard, but it's less frequently. This usually happens when a speaker forgets to roll the R by accident. The rolled R used to be a common part of the French language in Europe, but as the language got standardized, the rolled R got omitted. However, it still exists in rural communities in France, as do many words that people claim are "Cajun" words.

This website sums up the many accents that are still found today in France: http://accentsdefrance.free.fr/ Notice that "standard French" is one accent among many.

I also totally disagree with your belief that standard French gives people a good foundation for learning Cajun French. I teach Cajun French in Houma and a good foundation in Cajun French will also give someone the ability to add standard French words to their vocabulary if they choose do to so. This also gives them the advantage of being non-intrusive with foreign vocabulary when speaking with Louisiana natives, like you've noticed with Marie-Jo Thério in the video series "Gumbo Là-Là."

However, it's normal for people to make sure that the other person understands when they're explaining something, especially when that person feels like they're in an interview rather than speaking with a friend. This even happens to me when I do interviews with people. They ask me if I understand. They're not asking if I understand their words, they're asking if I understand the story to make sure they didn't forget to tell me anything.

---Roy---

Re: Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

Roy,
I'm not sure if you're responding to me when you say that you disagree with my "belief that standard French gives people a good foundation for learning Cajun French."

This isn't my opinion, but the University of Louisiana's. However, I happen to agree with it. And, as far as I'm concerned, if Barry Ancelet didn't have a problem teaching standard French in the survey classes, then I don't either.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

That last post sounded a bit more combative than I meant it to. Sorry.

(My in-laws are visiting, so that may have something to do with the unpleasant tone.)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

Well, at LSU, Cajun French can be taken in place of International French and it counts as a foreign language, so you get language credit.

I understand that you'd think that standard French should come before Cajun French, but do you speak International or Cajun French? Barry Ancelet teaches the class to get a paycheck. It doesn't mean that he actually cares. Ask Bryan on this forum. He has first-hand experience with Barry. I do too. I sent him a few e-mails in French and he always responds in English. Go figure.

Amanda LaFleur, on the other hand, is one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. She's quick to reply and she'll even reply in French!

Why is it so hard for people to understand that Cajuns who speak Cajun French are fully capable of learning Interntaional French? I know quite a few Cajuns who have done just that. They've learned to read and write in French (their French) and they've learned to read and write International French as well. International French is no better than any other French so there's no reason that it should come first.

Students in Europe have the choice between American English or British English. Students in Louisiana should have the choice between International French or Cajun French.

Don't worry, man. I didn't take your message to be combative in any way. I tend to read messages without a "tone" in mind. I take the words at face value so that I don't misinterpret a tone that wasn't there to begin with.

---Roy---

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

I'm not willing to say that Barry "doesn't care" or that he's only teaching for a paycheck.

I've known him for a while, and I've never seen any evidence that he's faking his interest in the culture. In fact, I've sometimes thought that his passion was a bit too all-consuming.

That said, he does have that classic standoff-ish demeanor common to Cajun men.

Jude

Re: Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

Reasons for teaching and studying Cajun French Dialect ( CFD :

1 ) see or act in local CFD theatre .

2 ) read poems from the canon of CFD poetry.

3 ) sing songs or nursery rhymes from the canon of CFD.

4 ) converse with native CFD speakers.

5 ) "perform" in songs, poetry, jokes, stories, in CFD to a SF speaking / CF understanding public ( in LA or abroad ).

6 ) Presentation of the history of Cajun music, culture, art, history to a group of SF speakers.

7) talk about anything Cajun to a group of other-language-speaking tourists with the help of an interpreter: CF to SF or CF to SE ( Standard English).

8) As backround ( overheared conversation ) in a documentary ( which is sub-titled ) for a non-French speaking wider public.. and which may appeal to SF speaking public despite the subtitles.

9 ) Understand relatives who are native CF speakers.

. . . . please add on your own !

GLENN

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

I'm sorry, but I never need a "CF to SF" interpreter when I speak to people.

How about these reasons for learning the language?

1) To pass it on to your children who can then pass it on to their children, etc.

2) To gain a feeling of pride.

3) To resist Americanization.

4) To ensure that the language lives for at least another generation.

---Roy---

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

yes.. interpreter needed for non-French speakers, Speakers of French as a Foreign.. or even Second .. Language.. but probabaly less so for Native SF speakers.. even though I have seen native SF speakers needing to fill some gaps in understanding. I find that normal. Many Americans find British English accents/dialects barely understandable ( i.e. Geordie, Manchurean, Liverpudlian, Northern Irish .. etc ).

thanks for further ideas for learning CF:

1) To pass it on to your children who can then pass it on to their children, etc. ( I take they are native CF speakers passing that on in the home )

2) To gain a feeling of pride. ( I assume it is proud of Cajun heritage )

3) To resist Americanization ( I am not sure what Americanization means.. are not Cajuns Americans, weren't they once Canadians (( North Americans )) ? ).. if linguistic displacement is meant, then perhaps avoiding extinction is meant?

4) To ensure that the language lives for at least another generation (Yes, perhaps another good reason to flank CF with SF so it can communicate with the world beyond the ever-dropping number of native CF speakers.)

with respect.. G.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

With "Americanization", Roy is referring to the changing of basic core Cajun culture to match the rest of America, as has been done in most all cultures here, and is happening in Louisiana like a land slide. Many of us are sad to see it. What many dont realize is people are fully capable of being loyal Americans and part of another culture also, just like the language. Of course that can only happen with the complacency and apathy among Cajuns, which is there unfortunately.

Re: some armchair linguistics.

Also, Cajun French does not need to "flank" itself with International French in order to survive. If you believe that Cajun French is so bad that in order for it to survive, its only hope is to be flanked with International French, then you're horribly mistaken. Cajun French is a modern (yes, modern) living language and it's very capable of adapting itself to the rest of the world.

Read Le Tabloid Cadien! http://www.tabloidcadien.com and you'll see that I'm fully capable of talking about modern life outside of Louisiana in Cajun French without the help of France and without the many anglicisms that people claim to exist in Cajun French.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-standard French. It's just that I'm pro-Cajun French and I find it disrespectful to the people who speak, use and try their hardest to promote this language when someone says that it needs to "evolve" or die. It's not that it needs to evolve. (It's already evolved. I mean, it's 2007 and it's still here!) It's just that it needs to adapt and be used more in reading, writing, speaking, media (radio, television, movies, etc.) and in different subjects other than Louisiana folklore.

---Roy---

Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

That is exactly my point: take it out of the folklore dept.and put it in practice . This takes language policy and would require communities to impose obligatory courses ( intensive courses and summer live-in courses ) in Cajun French, with pass mark performance in order to graduate. You would need bilingual Education programmes in Cajun French. It would require municipalities to require fluency in Cajun French ( not SF ) to hold office, position on Police Dept., Schools, any public sector job within local or regional jurisdiciton. This is how dying languages are regulated abroad.( examples come to mind of German spoken in Northern Italy, Slovenian spoken in Eastern Italy, Irish Gaelic in Eire, Welsh in Wales, or Dinè on the Navajo Nation ( AZ/NM ) etc.

I am sure Cajun French would benefit from it ( inventing new legislative vocabulary and sector specific vocabulary which may not exist )... it would become a means of getting things done, rather than a form of passive folklore . You would live in the language, rather than provide a colourful local option to expressing things we already have language for ( in English or SF )..and would probably make CF less insular, less regional, less exclusive and open up to many different types of communicative events rather than the routine limited repertoire that most CF speakers use it ( family talk, store transactions, service encounters) . . .

I do see it remaining as it is.. useful as a local, regional or inter-regional dialect, helping to define ( and sustain and perhaps extend ) local culture, create a group of exclusive discourse community.. but the repertoire of communicative acts will remain limited unfortunately.

some other questions persist for me: how many speakers of CF use it exclusively every day. How many use it going to the coffee shop, but back to work in English. How many speakers of CF are there now ( as opposed to 30 or 40 years ago ). What is the average age of the CF speaker ( not the one who Can understand it or speak it ..but one who uses it ). Where do they use it ( work, home, coffee shop, bar, football game etc ).. why do they use it ( as a means of self-identity, as an option to English, because you know the other person understands it etc. )..

Fascinating thing..the lives of languages.. G.

Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

Again, aint no pat answers about anything Cajun. The number of Cajun speakers vary from area to area. From the area I am from, around Mamou, it seems that people from mid 50's in age and older, are usually pretty fluent, and it drops off in varying amounts from there. It would be rare to find someone who uses it exclusively, except maybe in nursing homes by some of the very older generation who are forgetting what little English they knew. There are many who use it a lot every day, but since mainly only the 55 (with exceptions) and up crowd can converse in Cajun, they will speak whichever suits the moment. On top of that, many Cajun speakers will switch in and out of French and English, even mid sentence, almost like it is all one language. I am 43, so no one speaks to me in French unless I speak to them in French first. They instinctively know most people my age wouldnt understand it. Many will answer me in English when I speak in French, I'm not sure if its because they just arent used to speaking French with someone my age, or they may not even realize I am speaking French.

At the point we are at now, it will be hard to save the language. Roy is doing some inovative stuff that only a young dude could come up with. I think thats what we need to grab the attention of the young folks. Most of the older generation who speak it have resigned themselves to letting it go, and that is the biggest shame of all.

Re: Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

Pretty well sums it up Bryan. You are on top of things more than you know. I suspect that the area around Mamou will hang on to cajun french language the longest but for how long we don't know.

Re: some armchair linguistics.

I disagree, John. The people who will hold on to Cajun French the longest aren't Cajuns at all. The Houma and Pointe-au-Chien Indians in Terrebonne and Lafourche Parishses use the language everyday (and there are a few monolinguals) and they teach it to their children. People from 3 to 101 years old speak Cajun French in Terrebonne Parish. I'm not too sure of the age range for Lafourche, though, but I'm sure it's about the same.

Why have the Indians held on to Cajun French? It's because the Indians weren't allowed to attend the English-only schools with the Cajuns. Indians, at that time, were treated worse than black people. The Indians in this area went to an Indian school and they weren't punished for speaking French like the Cajuns were.

---Roy---

Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

Hey Roy, Glenn, Bryan, and all--

I am enjoying reading the discussion. Great information and ideas.

When I was in Southern France some years ago, I saw the Jetsons in Basque language. (I think they really had to fight to keep their language alive in both Spain and in France) I made me think right then if we could get regular children's television in Louisiana in Cajun French--not standard French...that would start a whole new generation of speakers. Children and youth will not use the language if they never hear it in their cultural environment...and unfortunately that means television probably more than anything else. Television is the new provider of culture...for the most part the youth pick up the culture that they see on TV and do not keep the culture of their families--many times, they do not actually spend very little time with their families, definitely not as much time as years ago in a rural agricultural environment. They seem to spend much more time in front of the TV, computer, and listening to IPOD.

What do y'all think?

Re: some armchair linguistics.

I fully agree that television, radio, magazines, movies, and all things connected to pop culture are what carries the language into the future. Bryan and I had this discussion in 2005 when I decided to create Le Tabloid Cadien!. Then after Le Tabloid Cadien! was created, I started working on Cajun French hip-hop. I believe that a language should not be confined to its folklore. When you look at other cultures and languages, the one thing that is consistent is that they have a popular culture in their language. It's popular culture that dictates what is cool and what is not cool. It's popular culture that introduces new vocabulary. Just think how many English words you picked up by watching television during your lifetime! Cajun French is definately lacking when it comes to fun, innovative, entertaining and educational media for children.

You can see a few of the videos that I subtitled in Cajun French on YouTube by clicking on Link #3 above. I guess I should upload the other videos that subtitled. I would dub the videos in Cajun French, but I can't split my voice six different ways.

---Roy---

Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

S'up Chris!? I think that's a cool idea... but check it out: Kids will start speaking Cajun French to each other when they don't want their parents to know what they are talking about!

Obviously there are several exceptions within this forum. Hats off to you and the other Cajuns who embrace their heritage.

Can I please join?!

R!CK

Re: Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

Hey, Rick been trying to fix you up. If you'd hurry up and get that wedding jazz out of the way, we could get back to bizness. I could teach you just enough french to get you into trouble, and you could teach me some of them little finger thingies.

Yes Chris, I think you are right, and that's what Roy has been working on. We can complain about what the kids are doing all we want, but if we want to reach them, we should use their media, or they'll just gaff it off. Me, I'm too wrapped up in old stuff, and they aint interested in that stuff. Chris, have you kept your kids interested in the cultural aspects? I remember that you got them in the music.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

The kids have been with me on many jobs and this has been their primary exposure to the culture. It is one of the main reasons I started Bayou Roots and started playing more family-friendly places...so that they could hear Cajun music and language before they grew up. I had been playing a "cajun flavored" music (Louisiana's Kingfish) before that time that didn't have as many songs in French. Bayou Roots, whether they realize it yet or not, was my way of passing some the older stuff on to them...don't tell them that though! Before Bayou Roots, they hadn't heard me play in a band directly devoted to Cajun music...most of that had happened when they before they were born or when they were very young.

For the most part though, they are little "Americans" as Roy would say. (I mean no disrepect to our country, I love the USA) They are pretty much taken in by the glitz and glamor of pop culture. But I take hope in the Savoy "children's (Joel, Sarah, Wilson)" back story--It seems like I read that they started appreciating the Cajun scene more after they got away from home...before that time, they had sort of taken it for granted. Maybe my children will be like that too.

Point being--I am not sure my children realize what they have been exposed to all their lives...customs, language, music, etc. I know that I never realized that stuff in full until I moved away to the big city of Lake Charles--then I wanted to go back "home" to the farm in the country. You know you spend your whole youth trying to figure out how to get off the farm and after you do...you start missing the old life. At least that is how it was for me. The grass is always greener on the other side, as they say...

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: some armchair linguistics.

That's all we can do, expose them to it, try not to push them away from it, and hope for the best.

Like many, I didnt really appreciate it until I had moved away. I was always interested, but took it for granted. It never occured to me years ago that things would be disappearing. Now my kids are growing up Texans, with a Texas accent, and though I expose them as much as I can, they consider themselves outsiders. They are having to learn some French, there are some things I only say to them in French, but it is a drop in the bucket. Maybe someday they will come to be interested. My biggest hope is that my son in interested in music in a big way, now I just gotta aim it at Cajun music in a offhanded way and see what happens.

Hope for Bryan

Bryan, don't give up. If that can be of encouragement, my wife was born in Quebec city, but her family moved to Halifax Nova Scotia when she was very young. Her father switched to English in the house, and they were in a total English environment outside (school, street, etc.). My wife always spoke to her family in English. Despite that complete English immersion, her mother (my mother in law) never stopped speaking to her in French, event her daughter always responded in English. When we met, my wife could barely speak French. However, the language was all in her brains.... We moved to Montreal (French environment) and we started speaking French at home.. within a few months, something in her brain unlocked and she became fully bilingual. Today (19 years later), one would be challenge to say what is her mother's tongue, when she speaks French or English.
So the moral is: Never give up and continue with your drops in the buckets, someday the bucket will fill up.
Maz

Re: Hope for Bryan

"Never give up and continue with your drops in the buckets, someday the bucket will fill up."

Now that should be patented Maz. Non, moi j'va jamais lacher la langage ou la couture.

Re: Re: Hope for Bryan

S'long as them drops ain't tears! Ha! Yeah, Bryan -- looking forward to moving beyond this matrimonial month and getting back on track with another fine eve of chanky chankin' with ya. Which of course, includes some of your Francophication and Pearl pops with da foam on top! Sit tight... and pull right!

R!CK



Jamey Hall's most excellent Cajun Accordion Music Theory

Brett's all new Cajun Accordion Music Theory for all keys!

LFR1.gif - 1092 Bytes The April 2011 Dewey Balfa Cajun & Creole Heritage Week

augusta.gif - 6841 Bytes

Listen to Some GREAT Music While You Surf the Net!!
The BEST Radio Station on the Planet!