Want more nits

Those who use the decorative inlays do not take the time to line them up left and right

Phillips head screws; the bane of society

Black leather bits with tacky white thread

Protruding screws of any type ,anywhere

Flappers that are not equidistant from one another or off at angles..

gold and silver foil..

mixes of wood and colors that just ain't right

Tacky cheap D rings intended to hang picture frames used as staps hardware.. c'mon at least call Hohner in Virginia and spend a few bucks on some proper hardware




But , you don't have to buy them !
And that is all part of the "charm" : )

It's either a hand made or something cheap from Europe or China (yes Hohner is currently Chinese). I still like my little Hohner from China, but come on now, the bass springs break very easily and bellows that complete crap. German Weltmeister one rows suck too. I'd take a Louisiana made accordion any day.

And besides, the little imperfections are not that big of a deal. The sound matters most

I agree there isn't any excuse for sloppy workmanship, but Phillips head screws??? Love 'em. Having repaired quite a few instruments with tiny slot head screws that have been goobered over the years, I wished more people would have used Phillips. If you refer to the look alone, here's a weird one for you: repaired a resophonic guitar with the coverplate head on with alternating slot and phillips screws. Owner said it looked better.
Steve

When I built my last reso

I used miniature studs imbedded in the top

and used minature acorn nuts to hold the cover down

Phillips head screws were invented by Reed and Prince in 1937

they look out of place on a "vintage" looking piece of equipment

Any clod can screw down a phillips head.. it takes a proper screwdriver that fits and a steady hand to use a slothead

Well said Jim.

AS I said.. part of the charm

But I also appreciate my Castagnari for its lack of anomalies.

One other note

Just because a box is made by a Cajun does not automatically mean the utmost in quality

Alex, could you name some brands of builders you are referring to? Maybe some could use some genuine constructive feedback?

I have seen this in Falcon, Martin, Acadian and a few others. But oddly, not in all their boxes. I really think that quality can be improved, or else has slipped. I have absolutely no argument with the sound and playability. I think just because it is a LA box, gives no special license as far as quality. Sound maybe. This is probably why I only buy if I can see the box first. You really can,t with a builder direct.

Remember reputation is earned daily with every single box. You can't rest on laurels or the past. I have seen so many other threads that say that boxes produced in the past were better than todays production. Why? Shouldn't they just get better and better.

I have two Acadians that I can safely say are worth much more than I payed for them, new.

There is a great improvement in Marc's accordions in the past few years. The C and D require less air than any other handmade in C and D I've ever played. The sound is also heavanly on both.

My Martin is in E and also is among the best accordions I've ever played. I get goosebumps playing these accordions.

I've played on a Castagnari, and I enjoyed the precision and uniform quality of it.

But it don't hold a spark to my hand made Cajun accordions. That is just my opinion though. I'm sure if someone raised their accordion playing on a Castagnari, they may feel differently.

Also, if any of you doubt the sound of the brands I mentioned that I own, I'll happily play them for you over the phone. You might change your tune

How true..
and not every Martin guitar is exceptional.
Brands no longer dictate excellence.

I will describe some accordeons I have ordered an NO I will NOT disclose the makers...

I ordered an accordeon with a very specific request NOT to have a particular color anywhere on the accordeon.. it showed up with this color on several components,,,because of the construction, not possible to remove the color without completely dismantling the box and starting over

Another: the right side and left side were tuned to different temperaments.. and the tuning wasn;t right..
even unto itself

Another .. on the right side soundboard.. a few of the 40 holes were drilled off center..
and most of the holes had slivers and frayed edges which necessitated spending about 3 hours cleaning it up

Another.. the reed blocks were blocking the holes

Another the slides were made so that they never fully exposed the holes...ie blockage

On a few... the marquetry was not lined up.. I mean take a momnet and line them up and cut them so that the left and right match

Another... the finish was attrocious.. hideous color and blotchy...

On a couple the finish looked like it was applied with a broom and a bucket
no pore filling for sure...

Another.. glue I mean glue...

Another I ordered specific woods to be used..
I did not expect a zebra

Another... came with the strangest tuning.. 443 and Americano....

Another... busted up inside the "orignal" case... accordeon was thrown in the case with about 3 inches of space all around it... then put in a cardboard box...( there is a lot more to this story and not the only time this has happened)

Another paid $125 for overnight shippping.. took 31 days... maker decided to pocket the extra change
this happned twice

Another the four stopper knobs did not match...

A few... cheap picture frame makers D rings on an accordeon costing over $1500... tacky...

Reeds promised were not the reeds ordered

And I will reserve comments about a "reputable" maker that screwed me out of some koa...partly due to my gullibility and I should have known better...

Corner metal brackets bent wrong and still nailed in place.. a couple scratched up.

As I mentioned before.. flappers all tilted

Button height different....



Now .. not all these were Cajun built.. most were.. but you get the idea

Just because you are a Cajun or Italian or Quebec or French maker of some fame is absolutely no guarantee that you will get what others got

I will also note that if you are rich or famous you seem to get a better deal... just my observation



Yes boxes should get better.. but when there is a growing popularity, and a cultural myth that (some) people are afraid to burst ... and not wishing to step on toes.. the myth is perpetuated

to the detriment(sp) of the players/buyers and the reputable makers

Personally I would not put my name on a box I did not build.. but that's just me...

when you find you can lower quality, cut corners, hire help and raise your prices by virtue of a reputation...



However ( again) I have played some extraordinary Cajun made boxes....

And some Italian dogs......

One look at my 1880's German made 2 row... 125 years old and the qulity of the design materials and construction is hard to beat

Wow, man, that's is really crazy.... I also know of someone who ordered a black accordion from builder (I wasn't given a name) and got a zebra wood.

Funny enough, I ordered a Zebra wood and got a zebra wood!

I also wondered about the slides that were not fully carved for the valve holes. It actually bugged me for a while. I have come to find that it is part of the reason the accordion uses less air than the rest

How do I know, one might ask? I took my E Martin accordion that had the slides carved perfectly to the valve holes and pushed them down slightly so the slide wood was exposed in the holes.... I found it took less air to play that accordion.... That same accordion I got changed to E and naturally, being smaller reeds now uses hardly any air.

So, my C and D Acadians may have wood exposed in the stop holes, but there is a special reason for this.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not talking about sound quality in LA boxes. No question for me, I love their sound. I am talking about cosmetic workmanship. They have the function now improve the form. I know outside appearance has nothing to do with the sound, but it does show the dedication to craftsmanship, and you know, it sure feel better to play when you couple the two. Then you have a proud winner to hand off to your grandkids. I only own LA boxes, but I have seen others and really appreciate their craftsmanship. I just want to see us do better cosmetically. We have the sound, now lets package it in a work of art.

Ever see Iry's ugly old accordion?

I'm proud of the pretty box Junior made for me, but I'd gladly give up the pretty packaging if I could play like Iry.

I feel the same about Willie Nelson's guitar. Nothing like a good ole comfortable box or ax--you shouldn't care about how it looks, but how it feels and sings--it's a friend. The main thing is to play the darn things, not to just look at them.

What kind of cosmetic problems are you people knit-picking????

Personally , I could do without the inlaid marquetry
this would eliminate the mismatching

I could do without the metal corners...

I could do without the embossed scrolling

A simple black box would be fine..

no pretense there...

But if you are going to add all the foo foo.. at least make it tasteful and symmetrical

And justy my take but mix and match woods such as walnut and maple together or bits of purple heart..
save that for someone else

Again that's uust a preference.. but as a furniture maker... my eye may be different...


Think Classical guitar

However Willie Nelson's Martin N-20 started out as a "perfect" instrument... and he had the pleasure of customizing it...

Alexander,
I think that you just discovered the miter vs. butt debate! I agree with you completely. As a solution to the screws connecting the frames is a totally different kind of frame construction, like that on Jeff's Castagnari.
Merry Christmas eve,
Andy

A cajun box could be constructed in all kind of different ways and sound and work the same. For example: you could use pins instead of screws for the bellows attachement, just like almost every other accordion maker. Four points of attachment would be stronger, but would it really be better?

I guess like most other things, there isnt just one "right" way to make it. Lot's of things are actually determined more by tradition. The cosmetic stuff could easily be optional. John Roger takes pride in his accordions being custom made to order. Some requests might require new jigs and maybe some builders wouldnt want to mess with it, but many other things are simply added or left off. That sure shouldnt be a big deal unless a particular builder just doesnt want any of his accordions floating around looking that way. I could appreciate that, but it shouldnt be too hard to find someone to build it like a customer wanted.

Juste mes 2 sous.

Hey Jeff, that sounds pretty wild. Would you mind sending me a picture via email?

What keys you have? I'm in love with the key of E these days.

Well, I'm surely not an expert on every aspect of accordion construction, but, I am not a fan of the four pins that you refer to (as used by Hohnor that I know of). If I am correct, these pins are installed at a slight angle, so as to draw to bellow frame in to the gasket. The problem is, once the gasket has been compressed, it tends to loose some of it's "memory". in other words, it doesn't spring back to it's original thickness. If the instrument is opened, as for tuning, then it tends to not seal as well when put back together because there is a limited amount of travel that the pins can pull the frames together. That's one of the reasons why our "handmade" accordions are so air tight. Because we are drawing the two frames together with screws in a straight pull, crushing the gasket and creating an air tight seal.
Just my opinion .
Jude Moreau

Jude,
I have a bunch of accordions, Castagnari, Saltarelle, Gaillard, and a Mélodie (the Mélodies with double bellows use pins). All have the bellows frames attached with pins (some with 4, some with 6). Not one of these has experienced the problems that you mentioned. They are not set at an angle, however; the holes in the bellows frame are offset, I believe, to draw the frame in. Perhaps the problem you mentioned exists in some Hohners (but none that I have played, for that matter.)
-Andy

Andy,
As I stated before, I'm not an expert. I have no expereience at all, with any of the brand accordions that you mention. The only exposure that I get, outside of building, and the maintenance and repair of "handmade" Cajun accordions, is the occasional repair or retuning of a Hohnor 114 and every once in a while, someone will bring a large piano accordion to me .
In my dealing with the Hohnor 114, with the pins, is,
that you may need to change the gasket after opening the box up. The gasket used by Hohnor, does not have any "memory". Almost every 114 that I've ever worked on has had this air leak. I can only conclude, that the instruments which you refer to, are not opened up very often, if at all.
This stands to reason, for me anyway, because I don't think you experience tuning problems very often with a wet tuned instrument. Therefore, it doesn't need be opened up as often.
When you have a dry tuned instrument, such as the Cajun accordions are, it is a given, that it will need to be maintained. If one of the reeds should slip in tuning, it would noticed at once. Many things affect the tuning of these reeds, such as , rust, smoke deposite.... Is it possible that the reason the instruments that you refer to, do not have a problem with leaks from the gasket, is because they have not been opened up ? Or, is it possible that when they are opened, the gasket is changed out with a new one ? This would be standard maintenance practice for a gasket that is subject to damage or, has no "memory".
Just "brainstorming"
Jude

Hi Jude,
Actually, all of my accordions have been opened on multiple occasions.

First of all, I've opened and closed them myself for the purpose of study, and out of curiosity about what makes them different from each other. I would say that each has been opened by me about 8-10 times.

I've also opened them for occasional minor repairs, such as when my Mélodie arrived after shipment, and a spring in the bass side had come loose.

The Gaillard and the Saltarelle are probably around 15-17 years old and have been tuned on multiple occasions.

Also, it is not the case that these are all wet-tuned. The Saltarelle and the Castagnari are dry. The Saltarelle was actually tuned by a famous tuner, the fellow who used to tune all of Gaillard's boxes.

I wonder whether these European accordions (plus the Mélodie) are constructed using a gasket material that is better suited to the task than the Hohner's that you have seen.

I have several manuals concerning accordion repair, and if I recall correctly, advice is given to replace the gasket when it becomes necessary. I believe it would take many years before the gaskets on pin-secured bellows frames would need to be replaced (except, evidently, the Hohners that you mentioned).

Actually, the only accordion with which I've ever had a problem with the gasket leaking after being opened was a Cajun accordion; I won't mention the builder but let's just say that it is someone very well known, and that the way it was constructed was common to every Cajun accordion that I've ever seen.

The vast majority of the German accordions that were imported to the U.S. during the early part of the 20th century were cheaply made and not necessarily built to last. Yes, there were some good ones, too, but I'm talking about the majority. It is a fluke of history that contemporary Cajun accordion builders have come to imitate the Monarchs and Sterlings. Not all details are faithfully reproduced! An example is the choice of wood. I wonder whether the screw-through-bellows frame might be another detail that would better be left by the side of the road. I don't think that it is the worst detail, but I do believe that their are proven ways of attaching bellows that are preferable. Just my opinion, based on the experience that I have had with European-made boxes.
-Andy

Jude;

FRM Enterprises in Montreal has some very good gasket material with pretty good memory and I found that it lasted pretty long.

Mounting the bellows frames with pins like piano accordions would necessitate building the frames differently. Not an unsurmountable task but a little more complicated than the standard frames now used. Would require a little more labor however. I think most builders could and would use that method of mounting the bellows frames if asked. I do feel that it would add a little to the cost of the accordion though. So perhaps for those who prefer that method I think that they should ask the builder they wish to use to build their accordion that way. Voila, you get what you want.

I have no preference to either method of mounting the bellows frames to the accordion and since I have built replacment damaged bellows frames for piano accordions in the past I don't find it a particularly troublesome method. Some like it and some don't. I built by what ever the customer wanted.

Just as mitres take a lttle more effort

A frame bellows with pins takes a little more effort...

it is interesting that the majority of "high end" accordeon builders use pins ( and mitres)

"four points of attachment would be stronger, but would it be better" ?

Absolutley

2 long screws holding an end plate is IMNSHO clumsy and distorts the frame ion the center

with pins... no distortion

Let me know if I have any gross errers in my thinking here:

My understanding is a pinned accordion has rabbets cut into the inside of the face-frame such that it fits over the bellows-frame. This is so the pins can pass through the face-frame and into the bellows frame. This should make the whole construction stronger, though it would require more work in the building. The bellows-frame would require a corresponding rabbet to slip snuggly into the face-frame. Kind of a male/female design. The gasket designs could also change. You could even have double-gaskets. It would also change the "look" slightly.

John you seem to have a good grasp of the process of using bellows pins instead of 2 long screws and I have just one added comment. "More work, more cost."

As we can note, the so called high end instruments cost more than what we might call your standard one row accordion built by some builders in La. In calling their instruments standard I also mean traditional and in no way mean to degrade their work. But lets not be detered. If you want it someone can build it. One needs to put his money where his mouth is if he wants the best and as one famous guitar builder once said "not everyone can afford the best". I know the feeling. Ha Ha!!

As for myself, I am in the want business, not the need business.

Everyone have a Happy New Year

I am thinking of trying to build a box this year. I know I have the woodworking skills (and the necessary tools). The time to do it is the big thing.
Maybe I'll try rabbeting the frames and using pins, but keeping the two-piece face/bellows frame look.
The whole stop assembly seems to be the most complicated part...then there are the reed blocks...then waxing...then tuning...finishing...etc etc.

Yahoo gas a great group called "boxbuilder" where I can get templates etc. Hey, one step at a time, right?

Like you've said elsewhere, J. R., what's important is to HAVE FUN !

New Savoy or Martin $2200 no case no straps
butt joints and screws

New Castagnari $2200 With Case and straps

Mitre joints bellows pins

Pays yer money takes yer choice

Joh n I made a suggestion ( which I repeated here in another post) that the yahoo box builders group adopt a plan similar to a classical guitar building yahoo group

This group was led by a very fine maker/teacher of calssical guitar ... David Schramm form California

The idea was that everyone build at the same time to the same plans... ideas are shared, failings are shared, techniques are shared, sources are shared, materials are shared and in many cases some offered to do some fo the machine work not possible by others.. David would direct it all and keep everyone on thrack

The idea was to build over several months so as not to rush and allow a sopread of the the expenses

This would be possible withe the box builders group

I offered to assist with machine work and materials

I suspect there is a reason my suggestion and offer was not considered

Perhaps if someone else would suggest it.. it may be adopted

I think it is a reasonable plan


John perhaps you could suggest it to the Yahoo builders group since the principals have chosen not to respond


Outta here

Sounds like a cool idea, Jeff. Who would lead it? If an experienced builder led a project like that, I would love to participate.
-Andy

I proposed this and got nowhere...
I suspect there was a reason..
Had it been someones else's idea it may have flown

My proposal was rather detailed..
I still think it is viable

Maybe you could have a go at making the proposal...

If you don't have a link to S(c)hramm's (sp) yahoo group I can post it

I really think this would be a great way to get a lot of folks into a quality,guided do it yourself project where all benefit from and contribute to
the effort

those who are not prepared to build right away could still participate in the discussion and be better prepared for the next go round

The start date was loosely fixed at Feb-March with a finish date of June-July

If a generous Pro builder wanted to contrubute and with a "pay off" of tuning for a fee at the end of the build... that would be a real boon

As I am not a pro builder .. my participation would be limited to an active and "contibuting" participant
via wood or parts making....

And if someone really wanted to get this project on the map ( ie good press) a supplier of parts. bellows and reeds could offer a group pricing ..
wonder if Greg or Frank would be interested

Time for me to back off my attempting to interject old corp skills and just see where this goes

I see great potential...

and I also see that it would take some desire on the part of some others...

As to who would lead ?

perhaps the owners/managers/moderators of the yahoo group

If I were to choose Pro participants I could not think of any one better than John Roger
Jude Moreau and or Greg Mouton

of course that would be asking a lot


David Schramm builds Classical guitars and Flamenco guitars for a living.. he is also a prfessional classical guitarist and teaches ( professor) classsical guitar

He not only found his project NOT to be a threat to his profession and career but a benefit..looks good on a resume

it takes a special person to do what he did...
hats off to him...
for his time, his generosity and his experience...

dream on

PS seesm the yahoo group as good as it is, could be more directed and actually have a measurable contribution......specific goal orientation..
completed boxes ......
not just the occasional... "I finished mine"

But we finished ours...

see if this link works


no current projects on the sight but you can look back and see what they have done in the past

Jeff,
I still don't understand what reason there could be for this not to be taken up if people are interested. Email me off-list if you'd like.
I am still interested in organizing a building week here in VT, perhaps inviting Emanuel Pariselle to teach. It would be expensive, but everyone would leave with a very fine 2 1/2 row box.
-A.

I would be interested in helping but would need to know just how it would work as I don't quiet unederstand the whole concept.