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Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

I have had one of my fiddles tuned low for playing with C boxes for quite some time. Yesterday I brought it back up to standard tuning, and the difference in sound was dramatic. Lots more volume, better tone, and it seems to cut through better.

I may have to re-think the tuning down thing. You lose some open strings playing in actual C and G positions on a standard-tuned fiddle, but it might be worth it for the difference in volume and tone.

Anyone else notice this?

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

Found that most fiddles can't handle down-tuning, but about 10% does it well and sometimes even very well. Done a recent search for a good one by buying several more or less "wrecks" of quality fiddles on ebay, and after restoration and new strings, tuners, tailpieces, bridges, soundposts, fixing cracks, i got two behaving really well tuned down. PS got a few for sale now, all German stuff from around 1900, no chinese stuff thus. All set up for fiddling, with steel Tomastik strings and slightly flattened bridges .... - Nout

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

Nout is spot on! A tuned down fiddle is a very special item. I have a handmade fiddle from Maine built in the early 1920's.......it screams and moans and sounds so growly and good when tuned down. The magic is gone when I tune it to A-440. Strange.
Roger

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

Most people like the tone of a tuned down fiddle.I mean GDGD.the Balfa's played in GDGD on their early stuff.I have found that accordion players like you to play in GDGD,It sounds good with a C accordion.I just recently played with Jesse Lege and Dirk Powell in GDGD,and they liked it"I guess".I think Dirk Powell plays with a tuned down fiddle sometimes too.Don't get me wrong,I play a lot in standard also, I carry both in my case,but don't discount tuning down
Link 1 is Standard,link 2 is GDGD,below has a GDGD fiddle in it

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

Patrick,
What a great tune that Southern Soldier Boy is. Thanks for posting even though some might say OT. I say it was a fine example of what can be done in tuning other than standard. And if you played with Jesse and Dirk using it it has to fit...lol!
BTW is this what is called sawmill tuning in Old Timey music? Inquiring minds want to know...ha ha ha.

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

I was talking about what I think would be considered traditional Cajun "low" tuning - FCGD, i.e. each string tuned down one whole step from standard.

GDGD is called Sawmill tuning by some old-time fiddlers. It, and the variations AEAE and FCFC, are fairly common. I believe that Dirk Powell plays at least some, and maybe all, of the tunes on Songs from the Mountain in FCFC.

I might have to experiment with tuning "half-low" (GDGD) and see how it sounds ...

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

If you want to have fun,try tuning up to BbFBbF,and play with a Bb accordion.Its very bright, fast and responsive,are just play fiddle tunes with it.At gigs,you sound really hot on the fiddle.Kind of the opposite from GDGD,which is kind of mellow.I'll try to post a video in that tuning

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

As for Irish fiddles, bands like De Danann used to play one half note up. A whole note up might work on a sturdily built fiddle, but can be harmful if it's a delicately built instrument, especially when the top is pretty thin around the edges, or the used wood is soft.

PS a trick done by many "corrupt", some times Gypsy type traders is: you take the top off from a cheapo, thin out the edges, then re-glue it and put it in a car trunk all ready for tuning but not yet. When you have a customer, tune it up to pitch, and it sounds terrific and loud. Customer happy, and pays a good price. But after a day or so the top collapses and only salesman is left to be the happy one ........

PS don't mean to be discriminating or generally offensive, but i witnessed such "traders" trying to sell me 3 prepared fiddles in Hungary on a tour in a proposed swap deal for my Magini copy work horse, one that sounds good in a lower key too. - N

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

that reminds me of a time i played with a Bb accordion and tuned 1 and a half steps down. man, the fiddle really growled. i like the sound of the drones, i know some one would say just play in standard. whatever, it's really all about what feels good......

rw

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

It's true you do lose some volume tuning down, but every fiddle has it's own personality. Some will actually sound better tuned down, some won't. Concert pitch wasn't always A=440. It used to be lower, but one of the reasons it got moved up, was to increase the volume of string instruments in orchestras. This was before the days of steel and fake gut.
Steve

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

To me, it really makes a difference in the tone and volume when tuning down...It sounds like a completely different instrument and responds differently too. One thing that I would probably try if I had to play tuned down a lot, different strings with higher tension...If you use a "stronger" high tension steel string, you could maybe get back what you lose when ever just simply tuning down. I would try different string with higher tension usually maked as "heavy" or"orchestra" or high tension, not medium or light. When using heavy strings, you have to be careful not to put too much pressure on the top plate, but with it tuned down a step, I doubt it would hurt most instruments...I would not tune it back to A400 with the heavy strings unless I was sure the face place could take the added strain.

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

I forgot to add,Don't leave a fiddle tuned up.Before you put the fiddle back in the case, tune it back down to standard

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

General remark: the construction of a fiddle is a balance of down forcing powers from the strings through the bridge, and the push-up force from the back with the whole construction from neck heel trough the back plate to the end pin block, involving very much the right thickness and configuration of the sound post. The whole caboose should end up that the top plate of a fiddle vibrates as freely as can be, with it's own acoustic properties. This is the secret of a really projecting fiddle, as an expert fiddle maker explained to me. He set up one of my fiddles fine-tuning all those factors, experimenting with sound posts, bridges etc, calling it freeing up the fiddle, and it now sounds really well especially at a distance. Funny enough a bit sharpish and edgy when you play it yourself. But i heard him play it from some 10 meters distance, it really has the sound of a top class quality classical instrument now, even fitted with steel strings. - Nout

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

Nout...yes I imagine that a fiddle could be set be set up optimally for playing FCGD. That is probably the answer--finding the right fiddle for this kind of tuning and adjusting string gauge, soundpost, bridge height, etc so that you get the acoustic factors to be the best that can be...and in the best balance they can be. I agree with the comments above when someone wrote that you kind of have to "find" a good fiddle for this kind of tuning. I don't like the idea of going back and forth on the same fiddle and expecting the same kind of response out of the same instrument with the either of two different tunings.

Generally, (assuming the fiddle is set up for standard violin to be played at standard pitch) simply loosening the strings to drop down a step will cause a loss of volume and a change in the tonal quality and projection. The other thing I have noticed is how differently the bridge pickup will respond when tuning down. I have a LR Baggs bridge pickup that sounds great at standard pitch, but tuned down, it just doesn't seems "hot enough" for the looser strings...there is a definite loss of gain. It seems worse whenever I am using something like "Dominant" perlon strings (really soft strings), hence my comment regarding string gauge.

fiddling with fiddles can be worthwhile ....

Electrickery on a fiddle is a totally different story ... the Baggs system as shown here:



is locking the pickup's contact spot at a fixed position, and the place on the bridge is probably pretty critical since the vibrational path is directed by the holes and spacings of the bridge. That changes with lowered string pressure quite a bit. If i set up a fiddle with a new bridge i usually mess with thickness, trying hard versus soft wood types of the used maple, enlarging holes some times, and also the correct spot and adaptation of the bridge's feet. Amplification: I usually play with a condenser mic on a stand when i have to, since i never liked the sound from piezos. Bought a now old Barcus Berry clamp-on bridge piezo years ago after a chat with Byron Berline who was using one then, and experimented with it's position and also the damping cork material underneath it's contact surface. Shifting it around makes quite some differences, but i still like a mic better.
Alas when you play in a drums, bells & whistles band you will probably need a pickup to defeat feedback from monitors. But there's a great choice of alternatives these days, though for sound quality i probably still prefer a microphone type system. - Nout

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

that;s what i was going to say

why not use heavier strings so the tension stays the same on the top, neck, and strings..?

wle.

Re: Do you lose tone and volume tuning a fiddle down?

Some interesting violin- and fiddle string related links:

https://www.fisherviolins.com/Violin_Music/Buy/Strings/StringBuyersGuide.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

http://www.rdebey.com/string_tension.htm

... there's a lot more if you search and surf a little. - N



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