Hey all,
someone recently suggested using a Roland 60 for a stage amp to prevent to feedback issues encountered with monitors. I almost always have the sound rolled back so much to prevent feedback that the drums overpower the mix.
What is suggested and will it work with fiddle too? Fiddle generally doesn't feedback as bad.
I use an internal mic.
thanks
kirk

Hi Kirk!

Well, I can tell you from personel experience that keeping
up with drums (and electric guitar & electric bass)
with an acoustic instrument can be a real nightmare!

I had tried all kinds of micing schemes and amps. I was
even considering getting one of those plexiglass
enclosures to place around the loud drummer that I
was working with at the time.

The last permutation that worked out for me was to
invest in "personal in-ear monitors".

They too have their own short comings, but at least
I could mask out everything completely if need be.

--Big

You could always try using a Boss EQ pedal to cut the specific frequency giving you trouble. I've seen a few zydeco guys using this on their accordions with internal mics. I'm sure Rick has a few pointers on eliminating feedback without having to carry around your own personal stage monitor. I have seen someone using a Roland as a stage monitor but he was using an external Shure wireless mic and preferred to have complete control over his tone than having to rely on a sound man.

A note on the drummer: If the drummer is always overpowering the mix, regardless of the venue, to the point that everything starts to feedback then he/she needs to come down volume wise or you need to start looking for a more dynamic drummer.

As far as the fiddle, I wouldn't really recommend using a keyboard amp as a stage amp. I know some people working in music stores that will always swear a keyboard amp works really well for fiddle because of the tonal range it's set for but I always found them to be extremely thin sounding. Unless you're really willing to try a ton of amps until you find one that suits your taste I would recommend just buying a really good direct box and going through the PA.

John

John,

Yes .. that is precisely what I did .. replaced the
drummer

Also, one of the great things about "carrying around
a personal monitor" is that the receiver is about the
size of a pack of cigarettes! (The transmitter, the
size of a cigar box.)

For me, it sure beat carrying a stage amp, monitor amp,
fold-back monitors, etc. And, absolutely no feedback.

Admittedly, this "solution" is NOT for everybody, but
I thought that I'd toss it out there

--Big

Also, I agree that you'll get a better tonal quality
by going thru the PA by using a D.I. box.

Only hazard is to have a GOOD soundman.

I've played some festivals that provide their own
soundman that offered comments such as:

Sure it sounds bad .. It's an ACCORDION! They're
supposed to sound bad!

(No wonder Lawrence Walker carried a gun to gigs!)

--Biggy

Full on, John. Feedback, internal mic'ing, and powerful drummers is my buisness. I've found ways to deal with them all with blue ribbon success.

First, feedback is always an issue if you play in front of a floor monitor; especially one that has to be juiced-up in order to have a reference above the other instruments. I have to admit, I'm not the level of geek gearhead that my bassist is. He us a vertible genius when it comes to sound. So when he speaks, I listen. He bought a rackmount unit about a year ago, and accordion feedback with monitors (as a general issue) has gone bye-bye. This unit is a Peavey Feedback Ferret. He dials in the threshold and "viola!" yes viola, feedback doesn't bug us the rest of a gig.

Roland AC Amp. There's a couple of 'em. AC 60 & 90. Both are exceptional IMHO for an internally mic'ed box. They are very compact and powerful and luscious sounding, with awesome features. A lot of gigs I use my Roland as a reference for the drummer and it is loud enough to give me a rear reference as well.

Drummers... It really depends on what you're trying to create. Regardless of traditional vs. modern, you want a drummer that is in the pocket all the time, and one that melds with your bassist. But if you are playing traditional Cajun or even the double-clutching style zydeco, you need a drummer that is a metronome capable of some tasty fills and some embellishments -- not necessarily balls to the wall. In my case, I require both, or all, since we fuse a lot more than the SOP in our set.

Hope this info suffices as one man's opinion. Good luck, Stryker. We're all counting on you...

Aha, so this must be your setup then .... :



Tip for John: just pump the volume until you don't notice them feedback no mo' .... JJ

I use an acoustic guitar amplifier from Behringer, the ACX1000.
They have newer amplifiers allready.
Very good suitable for the accordion.
Also with phantom power for the external mike and the internal mike works also very well for the lower tones from the bass.

In all seriousness alas: For acoustic work without drummers i use a Roland AC60, after comparing quite a few smaller amps, and mostly with a directional condenser mic, some times 2 with an extra mic-transformer plugged in the jack input for pickups etc. For accordion and fiddle, and for smaller events without drummers as said. I am not too fond of the murky sound of internal mics in accordions, or piezoelectric pickups on fiddles; f.i. an accordion sounds too much like a sax that way, and fiddles sound muddy & loose most natural overtones. This Roland amp then sounded best & natural, and has an on board ant-feedback filter able to get rid of alas only one squeaky band, but sure helps out a little when needed. PS tried the Behringer Ron mentioned too then, and probably the older model; it was not louder per se, and quite heavier and bulkier, also sounded more "electric" to my ears. Guess it works too though. - Nout

I agree completely with Nout, the Behringer is extremely heavy.
BTW, I have a build in mike in my accordion, but seldom use it.
When we play in a small pub, we use two ACX1000 and we use them for the guitar,accordion (both sides) and vocals(twice). For the fiddle we use a very small amplifier from Roland (I think).
It works, if the people are not to loud.

I use a Microvox external pick-up (both sides) on my Cajun and keyboard accordion, and use a Peavey Studio Pro Amp. I don't go through the PA anymore because of feedback problems with the monitors, so I just put my amp behind me to act as my monitor. I can mike it if we need more power to the crowd, but I don't run it through the monitor mix because of feedback problems. NOTE: if you use this set-up, you'll want an amp stand to make sure you can point the sound right at you. I found this out the hard way Friday night: amp worked fine while I was sitting down playing Cajun (I usually stand, but worked better to sit this particular time), but when I played the keyboard accordion I couldn't hear myself (which is the kiss of death when you play by ear). So get your amp off the ground.

When I used to play a lot of festivals with a loud band, I used a JBL EON10 on a speaker stand BEHIND me. (pointing at the audience.)

I actually wore ear plugs the whole time and was able to crank up the EON loud anough for me to hear my accordion with ear plugs in with no feed back.

This had the added advantage of helping to fill the house when you don't know how the sound man is going to be at the festival. (of course, I also sent him a feed too.)

The eon was small and light and easy to move and setup. You could probably get a G1, or G2 Eon10 for cheap now that the G3 version is out.

That's my 2 cents.

DP

Yeah..similar story here...we have a Roland Keyboard Amp on a raised frame pointing to the backside of me and the other guy in our band who play button and piano accordion.
We also have an accordion line out of the amp via DI to our Yamaha 16 channel desk, ie. when we are using a desk for bigger gigs.

We almost never have feedback issues...and we're pretty loud at times..some of the oldies say 'too loud' LOL...electric bass, electric/acoustic gittars, drums, fiddle, lap steel, keyboard, rubboard etc...4 or 5 vocal mikes and 4 foldback monitors.
We don't have feedback control technology in the line.

I'm a bit surprised how many of you are having issues.. that's all...

Darryl

I have used a few different types of amps. Right now I am using a Behringer Ultratone keyboard amp. Mine is the large one with the 15" speaker.

I have been pretty happy with it. Yes, it is big and heavy, but it sounds great. I am hearing low end growl from my accordions I didn't know was there. It has a graphic EQ which is nice, and there is a ant feed back feature built into the EQ. Each slider has a little red light in it that lights up if that frequency is the one that is feeding back. You can then back that one off a bit and feedback is gone.

I usually put it behind me, sometimes facing sideways so the drummer and bass player can hear it too.

It would be nice not to have to haul that thing around to gigs, but working only through a monitor rarely seems to work out well. If I am going to an unknown situation, I ALWAYS bring the amp for insurance. You just never know whether the sound man will be able to get you a good sound or not. Having my own amp has saved my sanity so many times.

I use a personal monitor by TC Helicon to hear myself on stage (link #2), which has made a world of difference in my playing. It has enough gain and tone controls for me, and the front of house sound is set up separately through the PA.

There are amps made specifically for harmonica that would not feedback and provide plenty of headroom for the accordion that is being run from an internal pickup.
see: www.sonnyjr.com
check out The Cruncher

I am new to this group, blues harmonica artist, seriously looking to learn Cajun Accordion, looking to purchase a good first instrument and am in need of suggestions for learning and integrating it into my current band. Thanks for any suggestions for a newbie. Anybody have experience with the Weltmeister Cajun as a first instrument? Thanks for your support and feedback. I have a good ear for cross position playing based on over thirty years of performing in blues diatonic harmonica situations. Love traditional Cajun and NOLA based music. Thanks

Hey Cliff..I'm a Blues Harp player..still use harp in a few songs in my Cajun/Zydeco/Country Rock/Blues band and on our CD...yep..we cover a lotta bases !!LOL

I think you're onto something, Cliff....that Cruncher would take plenty of 'grunt ' from the internally miced accordions.
Feedback is a complicated subject matter but I like where you're goin' with this [I play single row button accordion Bb and C ) and the grounding I had with diatonic harp REALLY helped me get along with the accordion.

As far as what accordion to buy...I have two Louisiana Hand Mades ( Bon Temps made by Jude Moreau and a Master by the late Mr. Charlie Ortego).
My experience is don't take short cuts..as an experienced musician you'll fast become frustrated with a unit that has weak points or low output....( there are lots of varied opinions on this subject matter ).

The Cajun units have power and precision and reliability. The other non- Cajun Louisiana units always sound to me like folk instruments for gentle souls...probably very nicely made, but...

Weltmeister..can't comment..probably a real good instrument..but for me they're all a bit lame compared to the genuine Cajun Hand Mades, for want of a better description.
Regards, Darryl, Australia.